The Greatest Indian Epic - Mahabharath

Dear Friends,

I am confused to find the trend of touching various points here and there...

...totally unconnected to each other... raising questions... on all... at a time.

Such a trend... will it be interesting to the Reader?

... or to anybody any knowledgeable person to post his reply.?

I suggest... please take up... one by one.

Common to all the Questions raised here in general, .. I put forth here the initial clarifications which can help you to pick up the threads further.

(1) Mahabharatha is named as "PANCHAMO-VEDA".. meaning the Fifth-Veda... supplementary to Four Vedas. Whatever was felt by God as left over in the Vedas... have been set right here by the dint of Preachings and Episodes.... as final clarifications.

(2) Only in that Divine Spirit... Four more Needhi-Sasthras or Gospels... have emanated in Mahabharatha.... ..They are..

(a) Bhagawad-Geetha..
(b) Vishnu- Saharsranama .
(c) Yaksha-Prasna
(d) Vidhura-Needhi.

(3) This is the only Awathaara where the God takes three Awathaaras (Parasurama, Balarama and Krishna) simultaneously... each in a different approach... but towards one common Goal

(4) At some stages we find the clash between these Awatharas of same God Himself... by which we get several Morals of Pattimanram type.

- Parasuramas Approach was.. to make the Kings .. the Rulers REALISE.. their responsibility to govern the country and perform towards the welfare of the People... instead of fighting for their ownership rights on the spur of Avariciousness and Selfishness ... ignoring their fundamental duty to the people... prior to claiming their personal rights..

- Balarama's approach was entirely based on TRUTH... the Theoretical- Approach. on Life.... He was supporting Duryodana and Kauravas side in general... advocating for peaceful settlement without resorting to war between brothers.

- Krishna's Approach... was .. more than the dubious TRUTH....

... but REALITY is more Important and the Practical approach in Life...

So to say nobody should exploit others based on dubious Truth or Laws only... but based on Reality and Empathy... the Moral-approach in Life... imagining oneself in the other man's position.

Thus the whole Story of Mahabharatha is the Drama of Clash between these three IDEALS... we normally see in our day to day Life.

... enacted by different characters and events webbed and woven as a net of Pros and Cons... and even Inconsistencies at some stages.

(5) Balarama tries His best ... taking advantage of His Voice with Kauravas ... towards an amicable settlement... by persuading Kauravas to render justice to their brothers Pandavas. But He failed.

And as a next step He persuades Pandavas seeking the support of His brother Krishna.... wherein Krishna vehemently opposes Balarama and differs with the idea of yielding to the wicked peoples pressure-tactics... eventually resulting in oppression of Righteousness... exploiting their sincere adherence to Peaceful measures in principle....

which is the Reality ... to be based upon in Life-approach.... being the Practical one contrary to Balarama's approach... the Theoretical one.

Fed up with His failure to convince either sides... Balarama abruptly leaves the country for Theertha-Yaathra... vowing not to be a party for any side during war.

He returns on the last day of the War... and along with Krishna watches the Fight between Bheema and Duryodana in the Battlefield..

When Krishna Himself hints to Bheema to knock at Duryodanas thigh... contrary to Stipulations.. the first person to object to such violation was Balarama...

... which leads to serious arguments between these two Awatharas of one and the same God.

Finally Balarama agrees in Principle... that in the detiorating stages of Time... when Evil forces tries to dominate over Righteousness...

when wicked people come to Power.. they take advantage of Idealogies to their favour

.. and try to exploit the Righteous people making them as innocent victims ...

Under such circumstances... the factor of REALITY (Yathaarththam) should be taken as the Basis for our Decisions....

...which only can ensure the Ultimate Win of Maha-Sathyam...

... the Victory of Righteousness.... over the Evil-powers

Sudhaama,

I posted that kannadhasan lyrics since you had changed the last line of "vanjagan kaNNanadA" to "un pazhi koNdEnadA" - in ur preceding post!

I did not intend to participate in the "dharma" discourse here!

A few of my observations :

1. Nakula and Sahadeva - are the sons born to "Ashwin twins" and NOT to Madri & Pandu as suggested here.

Kunti teaches Madri the "secret mantra" to copulate with deities as pandu cannot copulate with his wives normally due to the curse

2. Vidhura the younger brother to dhritarashtra and Pandu, was also born to "Vyasa" just like his elder brothers, but his mother was not one of royal lineage but a maid-servant in the court of Ambika and ambalika - the mothers and dhritarashtra and pandu.

Satyavathi, the mother of Vyasa (whom she "begot" thru sage parasara during one of the boat sojourns that the sage undertook, with her being the boatwaman as she was a fisherwoman - even her antecedants too are further mired in more exotic myths - with the "seeds" of a passing by angel, "dropping" his seed on seeing the fisherwoman foster mom of satyavathi, which falls into the river where a fish eats that "seed" and thru which "satyavathi" is born!!) - she asks vyasa to "copulate" with ambika and ambalika - as her sons thur Santhanu maharaja - die leaving their wives widowed and the kingdom heirless.

2. Vyasa, who till that time has lived in the forest as a "wilderness" man with all his locks and "Dark complexion"(remember his original name is "Krishna Dvaipyana", meaning the dark child or black child born in an island) - when he arrives at his "mothers' orders to Ambika and ambalika's anthappuram - makes them terrified.

Ambika - after many "unsuccessful attempts' closes her eyes when vyasa copulates with her - and so her son "Dhritarashtra" is born blind!

Ambalika is very terrified when she sees vyasa and so she masks her Maid-servant to pose as her, when Vyasa arrives in her zenana!

The maid-servant(of low caste) is not afraid of Vyasa, and so she is at peace with him ; Vyasa is pleased with her and so due to their copulation - "Vidura" a KNowledgeable and healthy child is born!

When ambalika's attempt to evade Vyasa is known to satyavathi - she again senda Vyasa to her; Ambalika - shivers and shudders at the "exotic"ness of Vyasa when he takes her - and so her son "Pandu" is born with palpitations

3. Thus "Vidura" is the most healthy child of the 3 - who is also teh most knowledgeable.

Krishna uses this "Shudra"ness of "Vidhura" - in a very subtle way to create doubt about him, thru the doubts of him being corrupt.


My personal opinion about the Mahabharatha's intent is - it was used by the vedic religion to "establish" the "Varunashrama dharma" as an accepted form of society.

"Varna" is mentioned even in the original "Samhitas" and all along has been the intention of Vedic religion.

Bharata was the most effective tool to "preach" it and expand its reach.

That seems to be the underlying theme of mahabharatha - over riding all other "dharmas".

If at all it had any over-arching or impkicit intentions about a just society - it simply failed to evoke that aspect in the next 2 millennia of indian society!

However the more obvious and explicit intent of Mahabharatha has been a resounding success! :)

Regarding Karna's role:

1. Kunti - when her sons returned from Draupadi's Swayamvaram, declared even without turning and lloking at what they have brought, that they "her sons" should share whatever they have
b(r)ought, she aided in the distorting of "dharma"!

And worse, her sons listening to her mom's "order" treated Draupadi as if she is a "product" to be shared - at that very moment - took off all "Human-ness" away from her.

That day, "Draupadi"s womanhood was completely and eternally violated.

2. Even according to Kunti, "her sons" should share what ever they had brought then. So, "technically" Karnan - being Kunti's son, just like his brothers, has a rightful share over Draupadi.

3. When thes shameless Pandavas, used thier wife draupadi as a "product" to bet on - they violated her womanhood for the second time

4. Pandavas "knew" -even at the time of betting - that if they lose the bet - then it simply means - Draupadi becomes the "property" of the Kauravas, or in other words - another addition into their Harem.

5. Karna's insult to draupadi in the court simply equals his brothers' Pandavas insult to draupadi's womanhood!

According to that situation - Draupadi has NONE else to blame but Pandavas.

6. Dhuryodhana was the son of the reigning King, and so according to the then prevailing norms - there was nothing wrong in him aspiring to be the king.

7. The actual disrobing of Draupadi in the court - is the most ethically flawed thing (according to the story flow)

8. What would have Draupadi done or Krishna even? - if Kauravas simply inducted her into their court harems without much ado of these disrobing?

At best - she could have been an "un willing" inmate in the zenana prison of the Kauravas - as Pandavas would have left the court with their heads hanging!

9. If someone wants to argue - that it was illogical that Pandavas bet Draupadi AFTER they lose THEMSELVES in the bet - since WHen Draupadi Married Arjuna in the swayamvaram - she gave her consent ONLY to be Arjuna's wife - and NOT the wife for all 5 pandavas!

If that "Kunti Logic" is right - then this Kaurava (or shaguni Logic) too should be "technically" permitted in favor of Kauravas.

10. The moment - those shameless Pandavas bet Draupadi - they Lost the entire "Dharma" game!

From that moment on, it was NOT "dharma" but Krishna who is navigating Mahabharatha! :)

thanx Geno and Sudhamma sirs for taking the time to rewrite all that in english...appreciate it :D

Geno
I agree with you that Krishna ,being the supreme Lord,manipulates everyone of his pawns carefully in the Mahabharatha.He is the suthadari,the controller of everything and the actions and reaction too comes from HIM only.He is both the cause and the effect.As he shows in in his Vishwaroopa before the war to Arjuna,everything in the Universe resides inside him.Arjuna sees himself,the entire battlefields,all his cousins,all the army men within Krishna.If Krishna had wanted,there would have been no war,no ego,no jealousy at all. HE could have stopped everything!!! But, he does not do so.He wants to teach the dharma,karmic effect etc to human beings.So,he manipulates everything which will ultimately lead to destruction of adharma.

Regarding social implications of Mahabharatha,you can open a separate topic for it.Let us discuss only the story aspects of the Mahabharatha here. ;-)

viggop,

I wasn't trying to start a socio-political discussion based on the M.Bharatha!

As i saw some of the "story details" were missing i was tempted to "fill it up"! :)

Querida,

Thanks! But You can read "thamizh fonts" here on the hub, WITHOUT having to download any fonts to your system!

Link :

http://www.suratha.com/reader.htm

Go there and copy & paste - the post which looks "jumbled up" for you (that is the post(s) in thamizh) from here - in the upper part of the box there.

Press the Radio button denoted as "TSC" and in the lower part of that box - you would get the properly converted thamihz text!

You NEED NOT download any font - and you wont run into Firewall problems if you use this method!

Instead of curbing thamizh posts here - i urge friends to make use of ways like these - to overcome those difficulties - which are AVAILABLE for FREE - on the net!

Thanks! :)

Yes. Radically I agree with Mr. Geno..... We want you to enjoy reading in Thamizh... the Growth of which is the main scope of this Forum..

I am repeating the same Question what Mahakavi Bharathi asked...

" Why should you discuss in English... while you all are Thamizhars... having the best opportunity to discuss the enjoyment of the beautiful language Thamilzh...

...see does any Englishmen converse in any other language amongst them...similar to Chinese... Japanese.. or French or anybody in the World... except you the blessed Tamilian... be Thamizhan an not Tamilian anymore.... Let our Great THamizh...Spread wider and wider over the world... Even the Strangers let learn and enjoy our Sweet Classical Language of Global Standard.

... Dear Friends...we say in a healthy spirit...Kindly think over... why we should not feel free to say in a language we feel better free and more expressive as English the best Language for discussing Science... Thamizh is theBest means of communication to discuss on Indian Culture and Religions... amongst THamizhars...

... Non-Tamilians also let enjoy outlook ... is it not secondary... to our freedom of mutual free-means..?

.. so to say... to discuss within our family.. should we resort to another language... just for the sake of convenience of another ?

Kindly think awhile... why Mr. Geno and myself should take the trouble of typing in Thamizh? ...

... while typing it in the English fonts is EASIER for us... ?

We are Not the Linguistic- fanatics...but thinking in the healthy angle of advancement of our language... the "no-way inferior one"... for this purpose.?

Why not we all enjoy conversing in our Language better-suited for the purpose ?

Is it so difficult fo you to make it possible to even READ?

Geno!
great post!
The question od draupadi and pandavaas has been a asked many times and many learned scholars have tried to give explanations, most of them unsatisfactory. Some have tried to hide this behind the shard of symbolism and alternative meanings to this incident. And your contention of Mahabharatha being used to establish the social segeregation is indeed true. There is an incident in Hastinapur court when Duryodhan and Dharmaputra (or yudhishtra) are asked a question to ascertain who is fit to rule the land. The question is what should be the punishment for murder, if it is committed by a Brahman and if it is committed by a low caste "shudra". yudhistra replied that the low caste person committing murder should be executed, while the Brahman should be let off with a simpler and less painful punishment. Duryodhana contradicts and says that the Brahman or a kshatriya committing an offence must be punished more severely as they were fully aware of the cause and effects of a sin and still went ahead. This argument is rejected and Duryodhana is made to 'eat a humble pie' in the court in front of all learned men like Bhishma and Vidhura. Whatever be the symbolisms that Mahabharatha conceals within it, it is an epic which reinforced caste system in the Indian psyche in a profound way. The only good thing about the epic is that it is a true reflection of whatever times it is representing and doesn't try to defend it in any manner. The issue is however when handful of scholars(?) are working overtime to justify many passages of Mahabharatha which were acceptable in its times but simply irrelevant today.

Jaiganes said

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There is an incident in Hastinapur court when Duryodhan and Dharmaputra (or yudhishtra) are asked a question to ascertain who is fit to rule the land.

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That is strange! Haven't heard of that one.

But according to Manu's code of laws, the brahmin is to be punished more severly for the same reasons as pointed out by Duryodhana...it is part of Manu Dharma! Maybe things had undergone a great change by the time of the Mahabharatha

Guys
If you want to discuss social implications of Mahabharatha,please open a separate thread.Let us keep this one to stories in it,discussion about the characters and philosophical meanings etc.
Thanks everyone for your understanding.

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Originally Posted by Surya

///Satya Yuga///
Ragu,
Is that another name for Thretha Yugham? I didn't know that. :)

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I think so :? , BTW, Unga Avatar Super pa :wink:

Dear Sudhama sir

If, as you say Mahabhratham was the fifth veda, was Ramayana the 4th veda, like you have said, Mahabhratham had 3 avatars of Lord Vishnu (Lord Krishna, Balaram and Parasuram) during these Dwapara Yuga period, I heard Maha Iswar took avatar as the Pandavas, is that true? Prior to this during the Satya Yuga Lord Vishnu incarnated as Lord Rama and Lakshman, so was Ramayana the 4th Veda?

Prior to both of these Lord Vishnu incarnated as many entities, like

1. Koorva
2. Macha
3.Narashima
4. as a Bhramin (I forgot his name)
5. Rama
6. Laksham
7. Krishna
8. Balrma
9.Parasuram
10. Kalki avatar yet to happen in Kali Yuga

is my order correct, if not please enlighten me

Dear Geno Ji

Excellent points, esp regarding rights of women during that era. Pandavas first adharma was disgustingly sharing a women with 5 brothers :x , then gambling their wife :x (this shows how addiction/blind pride and stupidity can lead one to hell), but in the war pandavas used many adharma tactics win over the kauravas, like killing the greatest warriors like Karna, Bhishma pitamah, Guru Dronacharya,Karna's son, while on the other hand Kaurava's only adharma tactic was the killing of the great warrior abhimanyu, Karna together with Dronacharya performed this illicit act.

Then comes the aswathama illicit act, I feel Aswathama's act had personal reasons (like Killing of father, dronacharya, and the disliking of the pandavas from long ago).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sudhaama

(2) Only in that Divine Spirit... Four more Needhi-Sasthras or Gospels... have emanated in Mahabharatha.... ..They are..

(a) Bhagawad-Geetha..
(b) Vishnu- Saharsranama .
(c) Yaksha-Prasna
(d) Vidhura-Needhi.

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Where does Shrimad Bhaghavatam comes in your list, according to His Divine Grace, Sripala Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhuda, Shrimad Bhghavtam was scripted during the Mahabharatham as well, though I don't know the difference between Bhahavad Gita and Shrimad Bhaghavatham

Dear Mr. Raghu,

I will reply to you tomorrow. Please bear with me.

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Dear Mr. Geno,

Many Thanks for your wealthy and interesting post... giving me an opportunity to bring out the unknown or less-known or misconceived notions... even amongst the Vedic-believers...!!!...

Mahabharatham is indeed the Great Unparallel Epic of the world being the Eternal-Lesson for the Human-Society universally ... irrespective of ones Religion or some such faith.

And even on such an authentic Gospel enacted as a Drama... even the Vedic-Believers, having Religious- Faith... being Theists are raising questions and doubts

... there is no wonder in You... questioning the Rudimentary factors of the Propriety of this Epic Mahabharatha itself ..... .

In fact ..on each and every line or even word on your postings I have a lot to speak of.... because you have misunderstood them.....

But no doubt your questions are quite SENSIBLE... exhibiting your sharp Wisdom... I appreciate... my dear Geno.

After Others and I complete answering all your Volley of Questions raised so far..

.... please continue such questions further too...

Here are my Replies to your Queries...

//"Vidura" is the most healthy child of the 3 - who is also teh most knowledgeable.//

Yes... in every way by Physical-strength as an Invincible warrior, as well as of High-Wisdom (Vidhura-Neethi .. considered one of the Gospels... a part of Mahabharatha was made by him)

According to Mahabharatha... Vidhura was the incarnation of "Yama" (Dharma-raja)... who had to take birth as a Human-being facing all undue blames ... insults and shame...due to a curse on him by a Rishi who considered the Judgement rendered to him... (conviction for a pittance of fault of paltry worth... caused due to boyish ignorance in a playful attitude) was highly unfair, unjust

Accordingly Vidhura.... another character in Mahabharatha pitiably suffers.

// Krishna uses this "Shudra"ness of "Vidhura" - in a very subtle way to create doubt about him, thru the doubts of him being corrupt.//

No. .. Shudraness has nothing to do here. Even Krishna was a Shudra.... being a Yadava. Nor Krishna played any cunning game based on Caste-feelings...anywhere at any time. But the Kings, including Duryodana had such a sick-mind very much... so he totally ignored Vidhura's advices at several times. . In fact Krishna was dead-against such discriminations. He has never encouraged nor advocated in favour of any disparity amongst the Human-beings on the basis of birth... in any manner.

Indeed Krishna showed his impartiality irrespective of caste or Status... his sincere reciprocation of true-love from any corner.... by this rare gesture.

Krishna did not need Vidhura in any manner either as Friend or Enemy in the Warfield.

Infact Krishna wanted to save him from his delicate position as of Balarama his Brother... However He did not manipulate or perform any machinisation from behind with nefarious motive.. but the sincere reciprocation of whole-hearted love from Vidhura..

Vidhura did not know nor feel that Krishna was the God's incarnation. But Vidhura being an impeccable Pinnacle of Righteousness as also an Expert in all the Saasthras... saw and felt Krishna as the Embodiment of Righteousness... and an exemplary Human-being ... an all-rounder well-knowledgeable Scholarly King... who could answer and clarify on every point of doubt either on Life-codes applicable for any common man, as well as on Reign-codes pertaining to the Royals. And mainly Vidhura loved Krishna sincerely to the core of his heart.. which the latter knew well.

While Duryodana planned cunningly to drag Krishna to his side... at least to gain a partial support for him... so that in times of future need can be made use of for any mediation.... .This gesture implied no whole- hearted love ... far contrary to Vidhura towards Krishna

So when Krishna arrived at Hastinapura....exhibiting a grand pomp as if for a visiting Emperor-Guest.... pretending humbleness.... Duryodana invited Krishna....to be his Royal-guest in his palace... which the Yadava-King Krishna could identify...in comparison to the other side...

Vidhura showing his small House naming it as a Hut... as a Single man...invited without any pomp or paraphernalias normally expected to receive a King or a Learned person...

... but with a truly cheerful face, exhibiting only Sincere Regard and Affection...the Humane-Love... and nothing else.

True affection and sincerety of Vidura was reciprocally acknowledged and preferred by Krishna irrespective of simplicity... so accepted his invitation and stayed with him as his Guest... ignoring the Royal- treatment offered by Duryodana.

Whereas Duryodana felt it a shame to him... and that Vidhura made his plans a failure by inviting the same person competing with him simultaneously...

Vidhura's gesture was whole-hearted on his own self-drive of Voluntary Invitation-offer to Krishna which was duly reciprocated... to show as a Lesson for Humanity...

... that the Sincerety and True Love are the utmost important criteria for ADJUDGEMENT...

... which Quality can supersede and overweigh any other factors of Enchantments in life.

... One of the High-Lessons... through Moral-gestures... by action.. without words.

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(Oppudan Muham malarndhae upasariththu Unhmai paesi, Uppillaa Koozh ittaalum unhbadhae Amudham aahum.)

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Originally Posted by Sudhaama

Dear Mr. Raghu,

I will reply to you tomorrow. Please bear with me.

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Thank you Sudhama Sir

What about Gandhari?
She was the princess of present day Gandhar.She was very dutiful wife who covered her eyes just because her husband was blind.This inspite of marrying him knowing that he was blind.
Unfortunately,she was not a good mother as Duryodhana never respected her words.
Even then,in the end,she tries to save duryodhana by asking him to come before her without wearning any clothes>she then unties the cloth which have covered her eyes.Lord Krishna again plays a trick on Duryodhana and her powerful eyes does not cover all of Duryodhana's body.
Unfortunately for her,her brother Shakuni is cunning person who ruins duryodhana completely and makes him run after wealth.
Finally,she accompanies Dhiritharashtra into the forests and burns herself up in flames by throwing her body into the fire.

Dear Viggop, Sudhama and others


Oh yes, another Adharma way of Killing, in mace fight, one is not supposed to hit the oponent below the waist line, and un armed, here this is what bhima does, he kills dhuriyodhana while he is un armed and on his thighs!

On hearing this Balram anna (as Lord Krishna fondly calls him) rushes to the seen fuming with anger towards bhima, who was ready to challenge Bhima for a fight, but Lord Krishna console balram anna about all the adharma's the kauravas did and that Dhuriyodhana deserved that.

so the point Lord Krishna is trying to get is you can not win adharma with dharma alone, at times you have to confront adharma with adharma.

what are your views friends?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raghu

Dear Viggop, Sudhama and others


Oh yes, another Adharma way of Killing, in mace fight, one is not supposed to hit the oponent below the waist line, and un armed, here this is what bhima does, he kills dhuriyodhana while he is un armed and on his thighs!

On hearing this Balram anna (as Lord Krishna fondly calls him) rushes to the seen fuming with anger towards bhima, who was ready to challenge Bhima for a fight, but Lord Krishna console balram anna about all the adharma's the kauravas did and that Dhuriyodhana deserved that.

so the point Lord Krishna is trying to get is you can not win adharma with dharma alone, at times you have to confront adharma with adharma.

what are your views friends?

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... at the sabha, when the pandavas lost Draupadi in the game, Duryodhana called her and asked her to sit in his lap (thighs). Bhima took a wow then to kill him by breaking his thighs....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ts

... at the sabha, when the pandavas lost Draupadi in the game, Duryodhana called her and asked her to sit in his lap (thighs). Bhima took a wow then to kill him by breaking his thighs....

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Oh yes, I forgot about that incident

"Raghu"

// "ts"..... at the sabha, when the pandavas lost Draupadi in the game, Duryodhana called her and asked her to sit in his lap (thighs). Bhima took a wow then to kill him by breaking his thighs..//


Not only that of Bheema...

But also Draupadhi takes a vow that she will tie up her Hair only after applying the Blood from the same Thigh of Duryodana... by hitting at it....

... admixing with the blood by breaking the dirty-hand of Dussaasana... who caused a worst possible insult to any lady ... especially a Queen...by derobing her in the presence of a vast assembly of people..... (on the orders of the King and Brother Duryodana)

Thus all the three commitments were carried out by Bheema...

Draupadi makes a vow to drink the blood of Dushashana and Duryodhana

Quote:

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Originally Posted by viggop

Draupadi makes a vow to drink the blood of Dushashana and Duryodhana

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It was bhima not Draupadi

Dear Sudhama sir

If, as you say Mahabhratham was the fifth veda, was Ramayana the 4th veda, like you have said, Mahabhratham had 3 avatars of Lord Vishnu (Lord Krishna, Balaram and Parasuram) during these Dwapara Yuga period, I heard Maha Iswar took avatar as the Pandavas, is that true? Prior to this during the Satya Yuga Lord Vishnu incarnated as Lord Rama and Lakshman, so was Ramayana the 4th Veda?

Prior to both of these Lord Vishnu incarnated as many entities, like

1. Koorva
2. Macha
3.Narashima
4. as a Bhramin (I forgot his name)
5. Rama
6. Laksham
7. Krishna
8. Balrma
9.Parasuram
10. Kalki avatar yet to happen in Kali Yuga

is my order correct, if not please enlighten me

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sudhaama

(2) Only in that Divine Spirit... Four more Needhi-Sasthras or Gospels... have emanated in Mahabharatha.... ..They are.. (a) Bhagawad-Geetha.. (b) Vishnu- Saharsranama . (c) Yaksha-Prasna (d) Vidhura-Needhi.

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Where does Shrimad Bhaghavatam comes in your list, according to His Divine Grace, Sripala Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhuda, Shrimad Bhghavtam was scripted during the Mahabharatham as well, though I don't know the difference between Bhahavad Gita and Shrimad Bhaghavatham
_________________
"Ekam Sataha Vipraha Bahudha Vadanti,"
"The truth is One, but different Sages call it by Different Names, but ultimatley everything leads to Maha Iswar (Shivam)"

Bhima's son Gadotkaja had a son called Barberik, who knew the outcome of the war thanks to the boon granted by lord Krishna, does not barberik sound like what is now a greek name?, after all the Aryan invasion was from Greece right?

another question, what was Karna's wife and son's name?

was it not Arjuna who killed Karna's son fom behind(another Adharma killing) to take revenge on Karna for killing abhimanyu(another adharma killing)?

Karna's son was not mentioned as much as abhimanyu in mahabharth, why? :o :shock:

and who was Yuyutsu in the Epic, I forgot who he was :(

I vaguely remember this.. so i might not be 100% right..
I think yuyutsu was born to dhirdhirasthra and was the last of the 100 kauravas.. He was against the injustice done to draupathi and the pandavas and joined the pandavas in the war.. He was the only kaurava to survive the war...

Raghu
the dasavadharam comes in this order

1.Matsya or macha (fish)
2.Koorma (Turtle)
3.Varaha (Boar)
4.Narasimha (Half lion )
5.Vamana (dwarf)
6.Parasurama
7.Rama
8.Balarama
9.Krishna
10.Kalki

btw, does someone remember the name of the last character of mahabarath? He's supposed to be the grand son (or great grandson) of abhimanyu...

"Raghu"

// Dear Sudhama sir... //

Thanks my dear Mr. Raghu. Welcome. I am glad to note your high calibre as a Gentleman.!!!.

// If, as you say Mahabhratham was the fifth veda, was Ramayana the 4th veda, like you have said, Mahabhratham had 3 avatars of Lord Vishnu (Lord Krishna, Balaram and Parasuram) during these Dwapara Yuga period//

Mahabharatha is called... as the 5th Veda...

...not because of three Awathaaras of Vishnu are involved...

.. but because of its message-content ... a translation of Veda into Reality...

In fact almost all the Main Devas... including the Lord Shiva... are involved in this Epic.

Out of all the Awatharaas of one and the same God, Vishnu...

...Krishna-awathaara is only called as POORNA-AWATHAARA....

...due to several reasons... one of which is that He being the Monitor- Conductor... so called Soothra-Dhaari ( meaning the person who operates a Doll-show ... Bommalaattam.... Soothra= Thread;... Dhaari = Holder / Conducter / Operator)... from behind the relevant characters...

... gets done... making others as the Doers or Heroes and Heroines while the God takes up the dual Role of just a Servant. of Human-beings...
on one side...

... alongside the simultaneous Role of the Supreme-conducter from behind.. ... ensuring the realistic enactment of Vedic- Dharma by action...so to say by the dint of Implementation of the Vedic-Gospels

... an Embarassing status carried out in an amazingly emulative manner.

//, I heard Maha Iswar took avatar as the Pandavas, is that true?//..

Pandavas are Not the Awataras of Lord Shiva... but the sons of different Devas....e.g.... the 3 Sons born to Kunthi, Pandus first wife. plus 2 for Madri his 2nd wife.

Kunthi's:--

Yudhishtira - Yama...
Bheema - Vaayu-Deva...
Arjuna - Indra...

Madri's :--

Nakula & Sahadeva - Aswini Devas...

Maheswar Shiva... graces and helps Arjuna a lot ... he being the staunch Shiva-devotee... but Shiva does not directly participate much in Mahabharatha... but on a few occasions.

... unlike Ramayana... where Hanuman is the Complex- embodiment of Vayu and Lord..Shiva .

// Prior to this during the Satya Yuga Lord Vishnu incarnated as Lord Rama and Lakshman, so was Ramayana the 4th Veda? //

Veda comprises of 4 parts... so called 4 Vedas... Ramayana is not named as 4th Veda.

Lakshman is not the Awathara of Vishnu... but he is of Aadhi-saesha (Vishnu's servant... (Five-hooded Holy-Snake)

But as a matter of gratitude and appreciation by Lord Vishnu... towards Adi-sesha for his remarkable performance in Ramayana...

... he is bestowed with a high honour as Elder brother... Balarama... a Complex admizture of God and his Servant within one shape ( Vishnu + Adisesha)

//...Prior to both of these Lord Vishnu incarnated as many entities, like

1. Koorva.... 2. Macha ...3.Narashima ...4. as a Bhramin (I forgot his name) ...5. Rama ...6. Laksham ...7. Krishna...8. Balrma ...9.Parasuram
10. Kalki avatar yet to happen in Kali Yuga //

Not so the order of Awathaaras are as below :---

(1) Macha Awatharam... Combined with the body of the Fish.

(2) Koorma Awathaara ... Combined with the body of a Tortoise.

(3) Varaaha Awathaara ... Combined with the body of the Boar(Not Pig)

(4) Narasimha-Awathaara ... Combination of a Man and Animal ..Lion

(5) Vamana ... Tiny-Man... First shape of Mankind.

(6) Parasurama... Full Man's shape... with Complex-characters of Man + Beast
.
Sudhaama" said...

//(2) Only in that Divine Spirit... Four more Needhi-Sasthras or Gospels... have emanated in Mahabharatha.... ..They are.. (a) Bhagawad-Geetha.. (b) Vishnu- Saharsranama . (c) Yaksha-Prasna (d) Vidhura-Needhi.

Raghu in Reply...

//Where does Shrimad Bhaghavatam comes in your list, according to His Divine Grace, Sripala Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhuda, Shrimad Bhghavtam was scripted during the Mahabharatham as well, though I don't know the difference between Bhahavad Gita and Shrimad Bhaghavatham//

Bhagawatham ... was made by Sukha-brahma-Rishi... a Complex Life-History of... Dhruva-charithram... Narasima-awatharam...etc of Vishnu... along with the major content on early days of Krishna ... ... including Kamsa-vadam... Rukmini-Kalyanam... Govardhana-giri lifting...etc...

... In brief.. the major content of Bhagawatham... is the narration of various sorts of Krishna-Leelas ... during His Boyhood ...

...prior to the commencement of Mahabharatha epic's stage involving Krishna....

Bhagawatham is different from Mahabharatha... even the authors are different.

... even though Krishna takes part in both... but one after another..

Sudhaama avargaLE!

I did not intend to participate in the discussion here, but for that Kannadhasan lyrics!

I largely differ from your views - on the "nature and intent" of the M.Bharatha, but as some friends here wanted i refrain from discussing them, and just let the discussion about the "epic" unravel itself :)

But there are certain unmistakable things in M.B - like the (Extra-marital) sons of the "Vedic gods" i.e. the Pandavas - prevailing over "others" - which is a very strong symbology - a portend for things to come then! (M.B must have been "edited" between 800 B.C 200 B.C by various authors, and also "enriched" throughout the later centuries by various "seers"!)

But we can continue with other lines of thought elsewhere or in another apprpriate time! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thiru

btw, does someone remember the name of the last character of mahabarath? He's supposed to be the grand son (or great grandson) of abhimanyu...

---

Abhimanyu's son was Parikshit, Parikshit's son was Janamejaya

He was the one who was credited (?) with doing a great sacrifice (homa) to destroy all the snakes of the world, to avenge his father's death by the bite of the snake. A brahmin named Astika, who was supposed to be born to a Naga and a human, stops the dastardly sacrifice, and saves the snakes.

Even today,there is a belief that Astika manthram can be used to ward off snakes.

The avatars of Vishnu can also be said as Human evolution.
From the animal forms,we move to different human forms and the last one who has already appeared is Krishna(as a great teacher).

Dear Sudhama Sir

Thank you very much for your detailed answer, very much appreciated.

Geno

Welcome, please do post your views regardless of what, so we can clear your/our doubts and have a healthy Argument :D

Thiru

Thanks for the info regarding the avatars of Lord Vishnu

Viggop

Regarding the avatars of Lord Vishnu, it indeed shows the evolution process!, never thought of that before :shock:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sbadri99

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thiru

btw, does someone remember the name of the last character of mahabarath? He's supposed to be the grand son (or great grandson) of abhimanyu...

---

Abhimanyu's son was Parikshit, Parikshit's son was Janamejaya

He was the one who was credited (?) with doing a great sacrifice (homa) to destroy all the snakes of the world, to avenge his father's death by the bite of the snake. A brahmin named Astika, who was supposed to be born to a Naga and a human, stops the dastardly sacrifice, and saves the snakes.

---

Thanks badri..

Balarama in Mahabaratham
===============================
Balarama and his wife Revathy had a daughter called Vatsala. Krishna's sister Subadra had married Arjuna and they had a son called Abhimanyu. It had been agreed by elders that Vatsala and Abhimanyu would get married.

But, as the Pandavas had lost their kingdom to the Gauravas, Balarama and Revathy changed their minds and decided to give Vatsala in marraige to Latchana Kumara, Duryodhana's son.

Abhimanyu, with the help of Gadothgajan (son of Bheeman and Idumbi) married Vatsala. Vatsala was brought to Gadothgajan's place, while Gadothgajan took the guise of Vatsala in the palace. He (i.e Vatsala) appeared as a monkey, tiger, etc., only to Lakshana Kumara, who ran away from Vatsala in fear calling her a monkey, tiger, etc., All gathered thought Lakshana Kumara had gone mad. When Balarama heard that Vatsala had married Abhimanyu with Lord Krishna's blessings was overjoyed and welcomed them to his palace.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by viggop

Balarama in Mahabaratham
===============================
Balarama and his wife Revathy had a daughter called Vatsala. Krishna's sister Subadra had married Arjuna and they had a son called Abhimanyu. It had been agreed by elders that Vatsala and Abhimanyu would get married.

But, as the Pandavas had lost their kingdom to the Gauravas, Balarama and Revathy changed their minds and decided to give Vatsala in marraige to Latchana Kumara, Duryodhana's son.

Abhimanyu, with the help of Gadothgajan (son of Bheeman and Idumbi) married Vatsala. Vatsala was brought to Gadothgajan's place, while Gadothgajan took the guise of Vatsala in the palace. He (i.e Vatsala) appeared as a monkey, tiger, etc., only to Lakshana Kumara, who ran away from Vatsala in fear calling her a monkey, tiger, etc., All gathered thought Lakshana Kumara had gone mad. When Balarama heard that Vatsala had married Abhimanyu with Lord Krishna's blessings was overjoyed and welcomed them to his palace.

---

did not know that, thanks Viggop, but who was Karna's wife(I forgot her name) and his son's name?

Vedic-Culture (Hinduism) a SCIENTIFIC- RELIGION and RAMA- KRISHNA?.

Dr Max Muller, a German Scholar... a multi-linguist Specialist...... was the first Foreigner to learn the advanced Sanskrit.... who took much pains to translate Vedas into English.

He... although a Christian... commented thus... after his deep unbiased Research...

Vedic- Culture... so called Hinduism... is a SCIENTIFIC -RELIGION... so to say based on Reasoning. For every Question on any point perplexing as a mystery or incredible... if one probes deep ... he can find an AMAZING TRUTH... by the dint of convincing Scientific-answers...

For example... anybody can question why God Vishnu... should incarnate as Fish, Tortoise, Boar, Animal-Beast by shape and Animal-Best by Qualities... etc.... appears RIDICULOUS DENIGRATION of God the Supreme in every respect... in the Religious angle.?

For this Question... my Answer is ... there is a Scientific-Theory behind these wonderful Sequence of Advancement on Creature Evolution on Earth....Relating withh the Scientific conclusions of.... DARWIN'S THEORY... we can analyse...

(1) The First creature on Earth... was born in Water... MACHCHA (Fish) Awathaaram

(2) Second creature as a next stage but in addition to the first one... was also born in water...but could survive in the Land also ... with its food being the First creature .. KOORMA (Tortoise) ... ''"

(3) Third Creature in addition to the previous too... was born on Earth... but living on the banks of Rivers... with its food on Root-Vegetations ... from beneath the Ground-suface .... VARAAHA (Boar) ..

(4)Fourth Creature was a Brainy Animal... Dominating / Ruling over all the other Creatures ... NARASIMHA (Lion+Man)...

(5) Fifth-creature was a Tiny one but of high Wisdom ... VAAMANA (Tiny-man) ...

(6) Sixth was the Full-grown Man... but with Beastly Qualities of Offensive domination with Physical + Brain Mights ... PARASURAMA(Man + Beast)

(7) Next was the FIRST MANKIND... a well-developed Creature with mighty power of Wisdom innate with Social-Spirit of Unity in Diversity... while confronting Common-problems :.RAMA ( Whole-Man)

(8) Advanced one... to deal with all the other Creatures amicably ...working towards Unified Advancement...(Started along with the previous one: (MONKEY) but developed next)... ... BALARAMA(Discerning Wise)

(9) Final-Creature ...as the Great Man... endowed with Applied Wisdom towards high standard Subjects like Science, Religion and such Rich Knowledge areas.. beyond his realm on Earth. .......... KRISHNA (Advanced MAN)

Hats off sudhama sir, for the wonder ful info,

Sudhama Sir

Please enlighten me about the names of Karna's wife and Children?

thanks a lot

"Raghu"

// Sudhama Sir... Please enlighten me about the names of Karna's wife and Children?//

I don't have any Reference here with me now at America... whatever I am posting here... are all out of my memory.... And I cannot remember such trivial characters... (insignificant for this high topic. of Mahabharatha)

Perhaps Mr. "badri99" may be able to furnish you...the Answer..

... since he seems to be an All-rounder with vast knowledge...

... Or anybody else too?