Ramayana - Another Great Epic

Mukkur lakhsmi Narasimacharya writes about this in 'kurai ondrum illai' as follows.

"When lakshmi came out of the occean asuras and devas were stunned by her beauty.All wanted to marry her.But lakshmi gave a condition."I will marry the person who doesnt desire me"

Devas and Asuras couldnt even pretend that they did not desire her.Lakshmi took a garland and moved ahead.She went to vaikunta where the balck thirumeni was laying.She saw him,he saw her.She saw nothing in his face.She only saw mercy and vatsalya.

"Dont you desire me?" she asked.

"Who are you?" asked vishnu.

Immediatly she garlanded vishnu.Since he was girupamoorthy he accepted her immediatly.

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we always see this repeated.In every avathar it is lakshmi who falls in love.Vishnu doesnt fall in love so easily.He never proposes.He only accepts proposals.

In krishnavathar ,Rukmani falls into love on krishna without even seeing him.Her father arranges her marriage with another king and Rukmani writes the first 'love letter' in recorded history to krishna.What was written in that love letter?

"Hey krishna,in yagnas havis will be given to devas.Wont it be ludicrous if a fox comes and snatches away the havis given to Lord vishnu?Similiar will be the case if I marry somebody else.

I am the havis given to you the purusha simman.How can a fox take away what belongs to a lion?take me"

After this love letter krishna comes and takes away Rukmani.

Radha's case is even worse.She first hears the name krishna.She immediatly falls in love with that name.Then she sees a beautiful youngman who grazes cows.She falls in love with him too.Now she is confused.She is in love with two persons.But to complicate things more she hears a venuganam and falls in love with the person who played thye flute.

She cries to a friend of her saying that she is in love with 3 people at the same time.Her friend consoles her by saying all three are the same.Radha is relieved.

Surrender:

The lines which I love in valmiki Ramayana are as follows.It was said by Rama to sugreeva.When veebeshna came to surrender to Rama,sugreeva suggested not to accept him.Now this is against the nature of lord Ram.He never lets down the people who surrender to him.He said as follows

"aanaya enam hari shreSTha dattam asya abhayam mayaa ||6-18-33
vibhiiSaNo vaa sugriiva yadi vaa raavaNaH svayam"

"He who surrenders to me saying "Rama I surrender to you, save me"- it becomes my duty to save him.This is my promise.I cannot take back this promise."

"raamasya vacanam shrutvaa sugriivaH plavaga iishvaraH ||6-18-34
pratyabhaaSata kaakutstham sauhaardena abhicoditaH"

"hey sugreeva,He surrendered to me.I dont see whether he is Ravana or veebeshna.It can be anybody,I dont care.Bring him to me"

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How does kamban treat this incident?

Rama says

"Uadandavarku uthavan ayin,ullathu ondru iyan ayin,
adandavarku arulan ayin,aran enna am?Anmai enn am?"

He who doesnt help people who dont have anything,he who lets down people who surrender him-what sort of dharma he follows?Can he be even called as a male?


"ennai saran endru vazkindranai thurandha naal,Irandha naal"

"The day I let down the person who surrendered to me,it is the day of my death"

"Athalal 'abayam' endra poluthe abaya dhanam eethale kadapadu enbathu:iyambineer enpal vaitha kadhalon;Ini veru enna enna kadavathu en?kathiron maindha kothu ilathavanai neeye en vayin konarthi endran"

He who surrendered to me,it is my duty to save him.I cannot think otherwise,I have no option.Bring him to me"

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This is always repeated by lord vishnu.He never lets down people who surrender to him,let it be any avathar,any situation,any condition..

He never forgot this under any situation.He never said that he was vishnu avathar anywhere.But when jatayu died,when rama was in full grief-he even forgot that grief and gave jatayu moksham,something which can be only done by parabhramman.His vratha made him to reveal his parabhramman nature then.Something which he never does in any other condition.He reveals his parabhramman nature once again when veebeshna came to surrender to him.

How did he give moksha to jatayu?valmiki says

yaa gatiH yaj~na shiilaanaam aahita agneH ca yaa gatiH |
a para aavartinaam yaa ca yaa ca bhuumi pradaayinaam ||
mayaa tvam samanuj~naato gacCha lokaan anuttamaan |
gR^idhra raaja mahaa sattva sa.nskR^itaH ca mayaa vraja

"hey, greatly king jatayu, through me you depart to the unexcelled moksha... you depart to those worlds that are destined for the noblest of jnanis..."

He did not say that he gave moksha even to his father dasaratha.But he gave it to a bird.

In mahabharatha when satyagi was about to be killed by purichravas he asks arjuna to cut purichravas' hand from behind.Arjuna hesistates since that isnt yuddha dharma.Krishna tells to him that satyagi has surrendered to him and is his devotee.He can never let satyagi down and if arjuna doesnt kill puruchravas,he will take sword and save satyagi breaking his vradha of not fighting in mahabharatha war.Arjuna then severs arm of purichravas.

He never has let down people who surrendered to him.

This is what veebeshna says after he sees Ravana's body.Veebshna loved Ravana a lot.Seeing Ravana's body he cries and in grief calls seetha as a poison.Ofcourse even if amritha consumed in wrong way becomes a poison.

After all Ravana loved a goddess.We all love mother seetha.But Ravana's love was immoral form of love.He also made the mistake of loving seetha and hating Rama.God never accepts such love.

I have read about a saint who prayed only to lord shiva.He never worshipped mother uma.So he went to a temple and saw parvathi and parashiva together as idols.He wanted to go around paramashiva but not around parvathi.So he took the form of an insect and went into the gap between the two idols.But parvathi and paramashiva idols crushed him inbetween and he realized his mistake.He sung many songs on parvathi and then only he was released.

It is a mistake to love a god and hate his/her spouse.Dhaksha made this mistake.He loved his daughter parvathi but hated his son in law shiva.In the end he was destroyed by his daughter itself.

Surabathman was a staunch devotee of lord Shiva.But he hated shiva's son subramanya.So shiva did not accept his devotion.

Loving a devotee and hating god is also bad.Hiranya did that.He loved his son prahalad but hated god vishnu.He got punished.But even more worse is loving god and hating his devotee.God will atleast tolerate the reverse.He let hiranya free for a long time.But if somebody loves god,but hates the devotee of god,god will never tolerate it.Dhurvasa did that to ambareesha.He was chased by vishnu chakra and only when he apologized to ambareesha,he was spared.

Similiarly Ravana loves seetha,but hated Rama.He paid the price for it.Seetha herself became a posion for Ravana.kambar narrates this as

"sanaki enum peru nanju unnai kannal nokkave pokkiyathe uyir.."

Meaning "When janaki the great poison looked at you,you lost your life"

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The rakshasa wives of ravana came to see his dead body.They were jealous on seetha already.They were jealous since their husband was madly in love with seetha.Seeing his body they cried "Did you not forget seetha even now?"

"Aram tholaivura manathu adaindha seethayai
marandhilayo innum?Emakku un vailmalar thirandhilai,vizithilai
arulum seikilai,irandhanayo...?"

You took seetha against dharma.Did you forget her atleast now?You never spoke with us,showed love on us..did you die,oh king.."

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mandothari comes to see the dead body of ravana.She says

"Kal irukkum malar koondhal sanakiyai manachirayil karandha kathal ul irukkum ena karuthi undal pugundhu thadavinavo oru vali"

"Did Rama's arrows enter your heart since it thought that your heart too had immense love on seetha?"

I like the analysis you are doing, viggop! To add another angle, only a person who is capable of handling the poison should be dealing with it. When according to the story, the Halahala came out of the Ocean, only Shiva was in a position to tackle it.

Also, look at Vibheeshana's way of looking at the event!

He didn't say "Ramamnin ambu thaakiyathaal ponathey uyir". That is obviously the literal reason for Ravana's death. But he directly attributes the fall to the adharmic act of Ravana.

One man's meat is another man's poison, it is said. Adding a very slight twist, to look at another man's wife immorally has been shown to be poison here.

Hi badri
All the above posts of mine are copy and paste.Not at all my original!!!

I try to elaborate the ages of Raman - Sita during their Marriage.

In Kamba Ramayana the age is fixed normal by Kamban fittable for marriage.

In Valmiki Ramayana the scene is different denoting the culture of 'Palya vivakam'.

Raman's age was 12.

"Thoshath Tharakthi yampathi
Chinthaya Mana Darmathma
Sopathyaya sabanthda vaha"

When Rama was twelve Dasaradan thought about his marriage.

In Vanavasa Sita told Hanuman that she lived with Rama 12 years and destiny led her forest life in her 18th age.

"Ashtathasa Varushani mama Jenmani kanyathe"

Before 'Aknippiravasa' Sita asked Rama "You married me in my 'Palya' age and still you are suspecting me ?"

"Nabramaani KirathapMaani
Palye Palena Peedithag"

'Palya vivakam' mentioned in 'Manusmirthi' and according to that Raman's marriage carried out.

This is the Therma in Inthu religion of yesteryears. Rama married Sita is karma.

I strongly believe that the epic go around Karma,Therma and Atharma.

f.s.gandhi

I thought that rama was aged 12 and sita was aged 8 during their marriage.

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Originally Posted by viggop

I thought that rama was aged 12 and sita was aged 8 during their marriage.

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Annalum nokinan, avalum nokinal... at the age of 12 and 8....

Very difficult to believe.... What kind of maturity our ancestors had at the age 12 and 8.... !!!

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Originally Posted by r_kk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by viggop

I thought that rama was aged 12 and sita was aged 8 during their marriage.

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Annalum nokinan, avalum nokinal... at the age of 12 and 8....

Very difficult to believe.... What kind of maturity our ancestors had at the age 12 and 8.... !!!

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haha!! good one, r_kk!!

I have always found it difficult to accept too! And then they blame the youth of today??? Who start only as late as 15-16!~!!! :wink:


Well, I suppose a poet must have his poetic license!!! :wink:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by viggop

I thought that rama was aged 12 and sita was aged 8 during their marriage.

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NO NO NO, i don't think so, BUT in those days and even now in rural parts of India and Africa Child marriages do take place, BUT that was regarding as ENGAGEMENTS ONLY, nothing ELSE I know this DISGUSTING but this has been going on for decades, it is bad time this ILLICIT MUNDANE weddings are STOPPED

pls DO NOT DEVIATE from the topic, thanks

Dear raghu
You are correct. My cousin's grandmother (my aunt's MIL) told me that she was married when she was 8 and in malayalam it is called as therandi-kalyanam. It was a celebration and after marriage she was brought back home and over years she found the person she got wedded did not suit her and later at puberty 16 she was re-married to another guy (related to the first one) (grandfather).

I remember what she said about the freedom of women in those days. She said once wedded it was difficult to get separated and no choice exercised ...but before that women had the right to change before getting to physically. She also told unlike herself, some of her friends lived with the same person they originally wedded at 8.

When I was a young boy I used to ask all these questions and she would answer with high logic's and some of them at that age could not grasp.

I

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Originally Posted by Idiappam

Yes! Fortunately, the British put out the fire!

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Um....actually, I recall my history tchr at school (7-8 yrs ago!) telling us tat it was Raja Rammohan Roy who appealed to the British Govt. in India to put an end to Sati in the 1820s (?)......following which it was made illegal.

thirupullani jagannatha perumal temple.It is in Ramanathapuram district.This temple is one of the 108 divya desams.

Sthalapuran:

Nobody knows who built the temple.But it is there from vedic ages.It seems that king dasaratha came here to pray for a son in this temple and he got lord ramachandra as a result.

specality:

People who dont have children come and pray and get children soon.This shrine has another specality,it has lord Ram in sayana pose.Usually lord Ranganatha will be in sayana (sleeping) pose in temples,but in this temple lord Ram is in sayana pose.

In tirupullani,Rama tried to build a bridge to srinlanka,but later on chose rameshwaram instead.


The priests of this temple are good natured.They tell us stahalapuran with great enthusiasm.Temple is very clean and well maintained.If childless couple comes there,the priests bless them with such devotion,that we are moved by it.Lots of cribs are tied in the temple pupil tree as thanksgiving to lord jagannatha.

Where is the Asoka Forest, that Sita stayed??

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Originally Posted by \"viggop\"

In tirupullani,Rama tried to build a bridge to srinlanka,but later on chose rameshwaram instead.

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How can a god err?

http://home.iprimus.com.au/naractl/F...ppearance.html

Idiappam Sir
I think Ashoka forest is in Lanka?Sita was put in imprisonment there with lady rakshashis to guard Sita and try to convince Sita that Ravana is best for her.

Dear Mr. "viggop"

// I think Ashoka forest is in Lanka?Sita was put in imprisonment there...//

Yes. That place is in the forest adjacent to NUVARELIA in Srilanka.. which is the Pilgrim-centre for the Hindu-Tourists to that Country.

One Specific Asoka-Tree there, is identified as the one where Seetha-Devi was made to sit under.

That Tree is said to be of certain peculiar phenomena, unusual in the Botanical History in the World.

Wiki on Ashoka

The Ashoka tree is a flowering tree considered sacred throughout India and Sri Lanka where it is found. It is prized for its beautiful foliage and flowers. The Lord Buddha was born under this tree in Lumbini. Also Lord Mahavira renounced the world under the Ashoka tree in Vaishali. The Hindus regard it as sacred, being dedicated to Kama Deva, God of Love. The tree gets a mention in the Ramayana as the Ashoka Vatika (garden of Ashoka trees) where Hanuman first meets Sita.

The botanical name for the Ashoka Tree is Saraca Indica or Jonesia Ashok. It belongs to the Caesalpaeniaceae family and is a very handsome, small, erect evergreen tree, with deep green foliage. Its flowers are very fragrant and are bright orange-yellow in color and later turn red. Found in the central and eastern Himalayas as well as on the west coast of Bombay, its flowering season is around April and May.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka_tree

Idiappam Sir
Is there a photo online of this tree?i want to see how it looks like.

Sudhaama Sir
What is the peculiar phenomena in that particular tree in Sri Lanka?

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Originally Posted by Sudhaama

Dear Mr. "viggop"

// I think Ashoka forest is in Lanka?Sita was put in imprisonment there...//

Yes. That place is in the forest adjacent to NUVARELIA in Srilanka.. which is the Pilgrim-centre for the Hindu-Tourists to that Country.

One Specific Asoka-Tree there, is identified as the one where Seetha-Devi was made to sit under.

That Tree is said to be of certain peculiar phenomena, unusual in the Botanical History in the World.

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First of all, is the Asoka Tree a long-lived tree? So long-lived that it could have actually survived the many thousand years said to have elapsed since the times of the Ramayana? That the same tree under which Sita sat is still surviving? :roll:

I personally wouldn't be too surprised if it is indeed statements/beleifs like these that expose us up for ridicule, and seriously undermine even what good really lies buried deep down a hundred such stories and myths!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sudhaama

One Specific Asoka-Tree there, is identified as the one where Seetha-Devi was made to sit under.

That Tree is said to be of certain peculiar phenomena, unusual in the Botanical History in the World.

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Dear Mr. Sudhaama,
Again and Again, you are proving that you love to create and spread myth. Most of your stories are far from logical and do not follow any kind of proven science including botany. If you continue your story telling process in the same line, no opponent orguments are required to falsify your claims. You are doing yourself.

Please go ahead creating/spreading new stories (horoscope for lion, Lake physically protected by Ram/Lakshman in 20th Century, facts or miserable stories of non-believers of astrology. etc etc...) and reduce the efforts of others who doesn't belive in such supernaturals

Quote:

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Originally Posted by viggop

Idiappam Sir
Is there a photo online of this tree?i want to see how it looks like.

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Do a google image on the botanical name of Ashoka, Saraca indica.

Take a look at these page as well:
http://toptropicals.com/cgi-bin/gard...=Saraca_indica

"Sudhaama"

// Yes. That place is in the forest adjacent to NUVARELIA in Srilanka.. which is the Pilgrim-centre for the Hindu-Tourists to that Country.

One Specific Asoka-Tree there, is identified as the one where Seetha-Devi was made to sit under.

That Tree is said to be of certain peculiar phenomena, unusual in the Botanical History in the World.//

The correct Spelling of the Town- Name : NUWARA-ELIYA....

.... near KANDY in Srilanka....

On the Strange-Phenomena, I pointed out...I am not interested to enter into disputes with anybody on the Veracity of my Statement.

What I have read and heard about,...I pass on here to others... as INFORMATION...

If somebody proves it wrong ... Well... I will correct my knowledge accordingly.

But my several dignitary- friends have confirmed such information which I had read earlier, since published in Books and Magazines....

So I am unable to ignore it nor consider it lightly as Dubious.... or Lose-talk.... but RELIABLE,.

I wish any Srilankan who has seen it and is capable to discuss about in detail...

... I welcome to reply on this Question.... Yes .. any Srilankan here please.

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What I have read and heard about,...I pass on here to others... as INFORMATION...

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Epporul yaar yaar vai kaetpinum apporul meipporul kanbadharivu

I hope I have got that right! Idiappam, FSG, please correct me if I am wrong.

Rama did not kill Ravana immediatly.He defeated ravana,sent him messenger after messenger to reform.He did not listen to anything.Kamban writes about one such incidence.

Perhaps "Indru poi nalai vaa" is another famous dialogue of kamban.It even became the title of a movie.But the correct verse is not "Indru poi nalai vaa".It is "Indru poi nalai porukku vaa"

Meaning "Go today and come back again tomorrow for war"

Ravana fought with Rama.He lost all his weapons,army and stood weaponless against Lord Rama.Rama did not kill him.With love and affection in his voice Rama said "Al ayya,unakku amaindhana marutham araindha poolai ayina kandalai,endru poi porukku nalai vaa' ena nalginan"

(Rama never wanted to kill Ravana.He did not see Ravana as his enemy.Earlier when sukreeva spoke about how he was helping Rama,Rama laughed and said "If I want I will kill Ravana and get what I want in one second")

When Rama said with so much benevolence how did the lankan king feel?
He felt humiliated.He felt lowlier than a earthworm.This also is a trick of god.He humiliates evil mongers first,destroyes their arrogance and makes them surrender to him.But some people even dont realize their mistakes at this point of time.

Kamban describes Ravana's humiliation in beautiful words.

"Varanam porutha maarbum,varayinai edutha tholum,naratha munikku erpa nayam pada uraitha naavum,thar ani mouli pathum,sankaran kodutha vaalum,veeramum kalathe pottu verungaye meendu ponan.

(The chest that wore jewels,the shoulders that lifted mount kailash,the tongue which sung songs so beautifully so that even naratha muni learnt music from it,the sword which lord shankara gave, and finally his valor--Ravana left everything in the battle field and went away with empty hands to his home...)

naal otha nalinam anna mugathiyar nayanam ellam vaal otha maindhar varthai ragavan vaali otha....

(In his house swan like women whom he loved,their words of affection now looked like swords to him,His childrens sweet talks appeared like sharp arrows of lord rama...)

Pan nirai pavala chevvai,paindthdi seethai ennum pen irai konda nejil naan nirai konda pinnar ulniorai manam thannai umilndhu eri uriy thappa thanan

(In the heart of Ravana the woman goddess seetha lived.Now in that heart shame and humiliation entered.A valiant ksathriya will die immdiatly if he is humiliated.But Ravana threw away the ksathriya valor and lived after that....)

Kamban says Ravana was dead on that second itself.We need not kill a man,if we destroy his self respect,it is worse than death.Ravana lived like that after that.He chose to loose his self respect rather than his life.


To be publicly humiliated is worse than death.But Ravanas biggest shame was not that.What was his biggest shame?Kamban says this as beutifully.


Van nagum,mannum ellam nagum,nedu vayira tholan than nagu pagaivar ellam naguvar endru atharku ellam nanan.......................................

Mithilai vandha sanaki naguval endre naanathal sambugindran..."

(Ravana did not feel ashamed that the devas in sky,whom he humiliated earlier, will laugh at him.Ravana did not feel ashamed that all humans will laugh at him.He was not humiliated when he thought that his enemies,who were treated by ravana with shame and contempt-will laugh at him.

He was ashamed when he thought that seetha of mithila,will laugh at him.That shame made him feel like dying..........)

what is more shameful than being humiliated in front of the woman whom you love?

Ravana is madly in love with seetha.He conveys his love to seetha devi.Finally going mad with love he falls at the feet of seetha.What a fall....there is no downside a man can go because of illicit love.

Kamban gives it in beautiful words.

Ravana strats off as

"Endru than adiyenukku iranguvathu?"

(when will you show mercy to me?)

Here kamban uses the word 'adiyen'.This is a word used by devotees to call themselves.Adiyen indicates a slave.Ravana uses such a word to denote that he is the slave of seetha.

"vanjanen enakku nane,matharor vadivu konda nanju thoi amutham unban nachinen.
naalum theindha nenju neranathu
unnai ninaippu *beep* avi neeka anjinen
adiyen num adaikalam,amuthena vandheer"

(Beautiful women are akin to amritha mixed with posion.I drunk such a poison.I am afraid to die without forgetting you.Adiyen surrender to you.You came as amritha to me)

"Thorpither,mathikku meni sudivitheer,thendral thootra veerpithieer,vaira tholai melivitheer,venil velai aarpitheer,ennai innal arivitheer,amarar acham theertheer,ennum eena enna sivitheer amma.."

Now Ravana rambling in love.These lines are too poetic.

"You defeated me completely.Your beauty even heats the cold moon.By seeing you even cold breeze sweats.My huge shoulders which are as strong as diamonds became slim because of you.You occupied my mind completely during the spring time.(Spring is time of love)You harmed me.By harming me you caused benefit to devas who are my enemies..what else are you planning to do to me oh amma...."

(Ravana uses the word Amma.It denotes a tamil tradition of calling all women as amma(mother).The tamilian inside kamban peeps out during such occasions.)

"Pen elam neere akki,per elam umathe akki,kan elam num kan akki,kamavel enum annal eivanum akki,ainganai ellam aniyathakka pun elam enakke aaki vibareetham purindhu vitter.."

(Every woman I see becomes you.Every name I hear becomes your name.Every eye I see becomes your eyes.You made manmatha throw his vicious arrows on me.Manmatha threw arrows which are bearable only by Lord shiva.But he threw such powerful arrows on me.How can I bear these wounds of love?Oh what an atrocity you commited...)

Ravana is not speaking these words.Its the poet in kamban who speaks these words.Tamil poets always exalt the virtue of love and valor.Even the great thiruvalluvar couldnt resist writing about inbathu pal.Kamban is no exemption to this rule.Maybe the poet in Ravan might have spoken such words.

"eeasne muthalana matrai manidar iruthi aga koosa
moondru ulagamum kakkum kotrathen
veera kotti pesuvar oruvarrku en aavi thotrilen
pen paal vaitha asai noi kondarthu endral anmai than masu kanatho..?"

(All men including even Lord shiva dont have the power to kill me.I rule the 3 worlds by my valor.many great warriors claim that they are thhe greatest warriors in the world,even such warriors have not been able to defeat me and take my life.Such is my valor,such is my manliness.But if now I lose such a great life of mine due to the love on a woman,is it not an insult to my manliness and virtue?)

saying all this and more finally the great king Ravana who have never touched the feet of anybody kept his head at the feet of seetha.

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Originally Posted by sbadri99

Epporul yaar yaar vai kaetpinum apporul meipporul kanbadharivu

I hope I have got that right! Idiappam, FSG, please correct me if I am wrong.

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great!

In Kamba Ramayanam , Bharatha tell Kowsalya devi the different type of sins.It consists of 20 verses.Some have been given here.

Bharathan says the following people are sinners.

Aram keda muyandravan-One who did not follow dharma
Arul il nenjinan -One who doesnt have a kind heart
Piran kadai nindravan -One who desired another person's wife.
magalirai vaalil kondron -one who killed women with sword
poikari koorinin -one who testifies false witness
porukku anjinon -one who is afraid of war
eitha edathu edar seithon-one who hurts a person who is already suffering
andhanar urayulai anali ootinon-one who burnt bhramins house
maindharai kondron -one who kills his own kids
vazakil poithulon -one who lies in court
nindanai devarai nigalthinon-one who abuses devas
Knniyai azi seyya karuthinon-one who thinks about abducting virgins
Guru pathiniyai nokkinon -one who thinks guru's wife with bad thoughts
kalavinil porundhinon -one who steals
oon nala unvazi nayin undavan -one who eats without giving to others(equates him with dog eating without giving to other dogs)

Thailaitha than thulavinon thalaivanallon ena alaithavan--one who refuses that the one who wears tulasi is god(vishnu)


Iravalalr arum nithi erindhu vilavinon--one who steals from beggers

Thai pasi uzanduyir thalara than thani pai perum paz vayiru alikkum paaviyum

meaning "One who fills his stomach while his mother is starving"

BHARATHA ON BAD KINGS

Azi varum arasiyal eithi agum endru izi varu siru thozil eyatri andu than vazi varu dharmathai marandhu...

He who gets the post of king using by cheap tactics which goes against dharma

anjina mannan--the king who runs away when evil forces attack his citizens


VEGETARIANISM:

In these verses bharathan says about vegetarianism

kandru uyiroyindhu ooga karandhu paal undon--one who drinks milk without feeding the calf first

uyir valarthu unnum asayon--one who raises animals and kills and eats them

Bharatha lists out these sinners and says if he had conspired against Rama He will attain the fates these people will attain.

reading the verses above, during Kamban's times, i think there were courts where people were called to testify! this was nearly 1200years ago!!!

Rama's beauty made people around him go mad.It even made sage viswamithra jealous.

valmiki narrates an interesting incident about this.Viswamithra takes Rama and lakshmana to the forest to kill demons.There Rama and lakshmana are sleeping.Viswamithra gets up and sees the sleeping beauty of Rama.Viswamithra knows that the one who is sleeping is parambhraamn himself.He loses himself at the beauty of Ram.Then he wakes up Rama with the famous verse

"Kousalya supraja Rama poorva santhya prabarthe
utishta narasarthula karthavyam deiva nmanniham"

Meaning "Fortunate is kousalya to beget you as her son.Oh Rama,wake up.Its dawn.Hey Lord Narasimma,work is to be done"

Sage viswamithra must have been jealous of kousalya,says mukkur Lakshmi Narsimacharya.He says that in hindu tradition a person is always called as 'son of his father'.But here viswamithra seeing the beauty of lord Ram thinks that how fortunate kousalya should be to see this parabhramman daily.Even though Viswamithra has seen god many times,how fortunate mother kousalya is to see lord as a child,playing with her daily and touching her and doing childish pranks.This is a fortune which even bhrammrishis and jnanis dont get

Many saints do tapas for thousands of years.Yet they get to see lord once or twice.While this being the case kousalaya without undergoing any such tapas or hardships has got the fortune which is the dream of all saints and rishis.

What is the use of being a bhrammarishi and seeing god once or twice in a lifetime?Who is more fortunate?Me or kousalya?Defenitely she is more fortunate than me and all other bhrammrishis.She attained this fortune only by her pathivradha dharma.

Definitions of the meaning of the names Rama,lakshmana,bharatha and sathrukana (from valmiki ramayana)

The word 'Rama' is defined as ramante sarve jan˜× gunai× asmin iti r˜ma× 'in whom all the people take delight for his virtuousness, thus he is Rama.' The name Rama is very old, so says padma puraaNa : þriya× kamala v˜siny˜ r˜meõa aham mah˜prabhu× | tasm˜t þrŸ r˜ma iti asya n˜ma siddhi pur˜tanam || padma pur˜õa

Bharata is defined as: bharata r˜jya bharan˜t - bibharti iti bharata Bharata is because he bears the burden of the kingdom of Rama during Rama's exile.

Lakshmana is lkÿmano aksmi sampanna× or lakÿmi asya astŸti lakÿmaõa Lakshmana is the favoured flourisher. The wealth of selfless dedication is in him, hence Lakshmana. One who is endowed with favoured dedication, kainkarya lakshana lakshita Lakshmana is a hearty dedication to Rama and he always wishes to reside by the side of his brother.

Shatrughna is þatr¨n hanta iti þatrughna or þatrughno nitya þatru ghna× Shatrughna is always an enemy destroyer.

Surpanaka's love is 'no lesser' than Ravana's love on seetha.Both brother and sister,soorpanaka and Ravana did the right thing by loving Rama and seetha.But they made the mistake of loving only one person in the divine pair of Rama and seetha and hating the other person.God will not accept such a love.

Soorpanaka's love is a bit lengthy in kambaramayana.

SOORPANAKA WONDERING AT BEAUTY OF RAMA:

soorpanaka sees rama's arms and says

மரங்களும் நிகர்க்கல; மலையும் புல்லிய;
உரங்களின் உயர் திசை ஓம்பும் ஆனையின்
கரங்களே, இவன் மணிக் கரம்' என்று உன்னுவாள்

Meaning "Even huge trees arent comparable to his arms.Even huge mountains are small compared to his arms.Only asta dig gajas equal his forearms" thought surpanaka.

'வில் மலை வல்லவன் வீரத் தோளொடும்
கல் மலை நிகர்க்கல; கனிந்த நீலத்தின்
நல் மலை அல்லது, நாம மேருவும்
பொன்மலை ஆதலால், பொருவலாது'

'His shoulders which carry bows are stronger than a mountain.His body is blue in color.Mount meru is gold in color and hence isnt comparable to this blue mountain' thought surpanaka.

'அதிகம் நின்று ஒளிரும் இவ் அழகன் வாள் முகம்,
பொதி அவிழ் தாமரைப் பூவை ஒப்பதோ?
கதிர் மதி ஆம் எனின், கலைகள் தேயும்;

This handsome man's sword like face-Is it equal to lotus?No.
If I equate this face to moon its a mistake since moon loses its brightness once in every 15 days

நவம் செயத்தகைய இந் நளின நாட்டத்தான்
தவம் செய, தவம் செய்த தவம் என்?

Such a handsome youngman is doing tapas.What tapas did tapas do to deserve such a handsome young man to do tapas?

Then soorpanaka takes shape of a beautiful woman and goes in front of rama.rama asks who she is and she starts describing herself.

'பூவிலோன் புதல்வன் மைந்தன் புதல்வி; முப்புரங்கள் செற்ற
சே-வலோன் துணைவன் ஆன செங்கையோன் தங்கை; திக்கின்
மா எலாம் தொலைத்து, வெள்ளிமலை எடுத்து, உலகம் மூன்றும்
காவலோன் பின்னை; காமவல்லி ஆம் கன்னி' என்றாள்

"I am the grand daughter of bhramma.I am the sister of ravana who lifted mount kailash and won the 3 worlds and guards the 3 worlds.My name is kamavalli" said surpanaka.

Rama then asks why she came there.Soorpanaka replies as

'தாம் உறு காமத் தன்மை தாங்களே உரைப்பது என்பது
ஆம் எனல் ஆவது அன்றால், அருங் குல மகளிர்க்கு அம்மா!
ஏமுறும் உயிர்க்கு நோவேன்; என் செய்கேன்? யாரும் இல்லேன்;
காமன் என்று ஒருவன் செய்யும் வன்மையைக் காத்தி' என்றாள்

"Is it acceptable if a noble woman describes her personal feelings in open?But this feeling threatens my life.What can I do?Nobody is there to save me from the atrocities of manmatha" said soorpanaka.

Rama refuses soorpanaka saying

'சுந்தரி! மரபிற்கு ஒத்த தொன்மையின் துணிவிற்று அன்றால்;
அந்தணர் பாவை நீ; யான் அரசரில் வந்தேன்' என்றான்.

"Sundari,You are a bhramin girl.I am a ksathriya.Our marriage is against tradition" said Rama.

soorpanaka replied by saying

பொருந்தலை இகழ்தற்கு ஒத்த
காரணம் இதுவே ஆயின், என் உயிர் காண்பென்' என்றாள்

"If this is the reason for rejecting me,I will commit suicide" said soorpanaka

வருத்தம் நீங்கு அரக்கர்தம்மில் மானிடர் மணத்தல், நங்கை!
பொருத்தம் அன்று" என்று, சாலப் புலமையோர் புகல்வர்' என்றான்

Rama said 'It is not fair for humans to marry rakshasas.Pundits will not accept this marriage"

'காந்தர்ப்பம் என்பது உண்டால்; காதலின் கலந்த சிந்தை
மாந்தர்க்கும் மடந்தைமார்க்கும் மறைகளே வகுத்த கூட்டம்;
ஏந்தல்-பொன்-தோளினாய்

'gandarva marriage is allowed by sahstras.Loving hearts can join by gandarva says vedas.Oh golden shouldered one,accept me" said soorpanaka.

நவம் செயத்தகைய இந் நளின நாட்டத்தான்
தவம் செய, தவம் செய்த தவம் என்?

No wonder Kambar is called "Kavi chakravarthy"!

After Rama refused her,soorpanaka sees seetha and is dumbfounded by the beauty of seetha.Kamban describes it as follows.

Seetha walking towards Rama:

பெண்ணிடை அரசி, தேவர் பெற்ற நல் வரத்தால், பின்னர்
மண்ணிடை மணியின் வந்த வஞ்சியே போல்வாள், வந்தாள்

The queen among women,whos presence is a boon to devas,came like a precious stone and vanchi flower.


மீன் சுடர் விண்ணும் மண்ணும் விரிந்த போர் அரக்கர் என்னும்
கான் சுட முளைத்த கற்பின் கனலியைக் கண்ணின் கண்டாள்

Rakshasas were occupying stars,earth and skies.Soorpanaka saw the 'fire of chastity' that came to destroy the Asura domination

அரவிந்த மலருள் நீங்கி, அடி இணை படியில் தோய,
திரு இங்கு வருவாள் கொல்லோ?' என்று அகம் திகைத்து நின்றாள்

Soorpanaka was shocked by thinking "Has Mahalakshmi who lives in aravinda flower,left that place and come to this forest in seetha's form?"

பண்பு உற நெடிது நோக்கி, 'படைக்குநர் சிறுமை அல்லால்,
எண் பிறங்கு அழகிற்கு எல்லை இல்லை ஆம்' என்று நின்றாள்;

Soorpanaka thought "Saying this beauty has limits and boudnaries to it is an insult to Bhramma who created her.Does her beauty have limits?No,this is a limitless,boundaryless beauty"

பொரு திறத்தானை நோக்கி, பூவையை நோக்கி, நின்றாள்;
'கருத மற்று இனி வேறு இல்லை; கமலத்துக் கடவுள்தானே,
ஒரு திறத்து உணர நோக்கி, உருவினுக்கு, உலகம் மூன்றின்
இரு திறத்தார்க்கும், செய்த வரம்பு இவர் இருவர்' என்றாள்

Soorpanaka looked at Rama and Seetha again and again.She thought "This is the lord of the Lotus.These two are the pair which created 3 worlds and appear to those who show devotion to them.This is Narayanan and Mahalakshmi themselves.There is no doubt in it"

(Soorpanaka then gets jealous and starts calling seetha as a rakshasa woman.)

'வரும் இவள் மாயம் வல்லள்; வஞ்சனை அரக்கி; நெஞ்சம்
தெரிவு இல; தேறும் தன்மை, சீரியோய்! செவ்விது அன்றால்;
உரு இது மெய்யது அன்றால்; ஊன் நுகர் வாழ்க்கையாளை
வெருவினென்; எய்திடாமல் விலக்குதி, வீர!' என்றாள்

"This woman who comes here (seetha) is capable of Maya.She is a rakshasi who is full of tricks and cunningness.Oh great man,this is not her real form.She is a flesh eater(rakshasi).Dont accept her,remove her from you" said soorpanaka.

ஆயிடை, அமுதின் வந்த, அருந்ததிக் கற்பின் அம் சொல்
வேய் இடை தோளினாளும், வீரனைச் சேரும் வேலை,
'நீ இடை வந்தது என்னை? நிருதர்தம் பாவை!' என்னா,
காய் எரி அனைய கள்ள உள்ளத்தாள் கதித்தலோடும்

The amritha like chastity of arundathi (seetha) came to join Rama like how a spear joins the brave soldier."Why did you come inbetween us, you rakshasa woman" shouted soorpanaka in rage and with cheating intention.

அஞ்சினாள்; அஞ்சி அன்னம், மின் இடை அலச ஓடி,
பஞ்சின் மெல் அடிகள் நோவப் பதைத்தனள்; பருவக் கால
மஞ்சிடை வயங்கித் தோன்றும் பவளத்தின் வல்லி என்ன,
குஞ்சரம் அனைய வீரன் குவவுத் தோள் தழுவிக் கொண்டாள்

Seeing this rage the swan was afraid.She ran with her feet which was softer than cotton.She looked Like the pavala valli flower that comes out during season.She ran and hugged the elephent like warrior's shoulders.

Soorpanakas rage now was beyond all boundaries.She started threatening Seetha.

'பூ எலாம் பொடி ஆக, இப் பூமியுள்
கா எலாம் ஒடிப்பென்' என, காந்துவாள்;

"I will shatter this earth and break the pillars of earth" thundered soorpanaka.

Soorpanaka then tried to dissipate her feelings towards Rama.What did she do?

கைகளால், தன் கதிர் இளங் கொங்கைமேல்,
ஐய தண் பனி அள்ளினள், அப்பினாள்;
மொய் கொள் தீயிடை வெந்து முருங்கிய
வெய்ய பாறையில் வெண்ணெய் நிகர்க்குமால். 78

அளிக்கும் மெய், உயிர், காந்து அழல் அஞ்சினாள்;
குளிக்கும் நீரும் கொதித்து எழ, கூசுமால்;

Soorpanaka took ice and put on her body to cool her feelings.But will butter cool off a rock which was heated by schorching sun?She bathed in cold water,but even cold water turned hot.

இந்து காந்தத்தின் ஈர நெடுங் கலும்
வெந்த காந்த, வெதுப்புறு மேனியாள்

Even the cool light of moon torched her body.

இன்னவா செய்வது என்று அறியாது, இளம்
பொன்னின் வார் தளிரில் புரண்டாள் அரோ. 82

வீரன் மேனி வெளிப்பட, வெய்யவள்,
கார் கொள் மேனியைக் கண்டனளாம் என,
சோரும்; வெள்கும்; துணுக்கெனும்; அவ் உருப்
பேருங்கால், வெம் பிணியிடைப் பேருமால்

without knowing what to do soorpanaka fell down in grass and rolled in confusion.When she saw the Rama's beautiful physique being held by seetha , soorpanaka went mad and wild in rage and felt like she is suffering from a cruel disease.

போகக் கண்டு புலம்பும், அப் புன்மையாள்-
மோகத்துக்கு ஓர் முடிவும் உண்டாம்கொலோ

Seeing Rama and seetha being together Soorpanaka lamented in pain.Is there a limit to the kama of soorpanaka?No.No limits are there for it.

I have no clear idea about Ramanaya,

but i personnaly think that it describes a war between Tamil speaking ppl and Sanskrit speaking ppl.
It's what Nehru trusted too...

So can someone say and answer me .

thank you.

Dear Eelavar
Ramayana describes a war between Lord Rama and asura king called Ravana who kidnapped Rama's wife Seetha.
it does not mention any sanskrit or tamil speaking people.
let us please keep discussion to ramayana story as the moderators might delete posts which cause digressions.

dear viggop,

cool down man.
every questions are good...

Why Ravana is seen as a demon and Rama as the god ???...

Does it means that some persons are not of divine creation ???...


Some persons think this story had really happened...
And that Ravana's city was located in South of Sri lanka, now the city is underwater...
If this story is right, it so can reveal that Ravana is the ancestor of Sri lankans...
and that the claim of Sri lankan tamil is not unfounded...

and what about the vimanas in the ramanaya....

After soorpanaka got jealous by seeing Ram being with Seetha, she started following seetha to kill her. Laxmana saw this. what happened next?


'தனி இருந்தனள்; சமைந்தது என் சிந்தனை; தாழ்வுற்று
இனி இருந்து எனக்கு எண்ணுவது இல்' என, எண்ணா,
துனி இருந்த வல் மனத்தினள் தோகையைத் தொடர்ந்தாள்;
கனி இரும் பொழில், காத்து, அயல் இருந்தவன் கண்டான்.

Meaning "Soorpanaka thought 'seetha is alone.No need to think anything now(finish her off).What is the other option regarding this?(nothing)'.Thinking like this the hard hearted soorpanaka followed the peacock(seetha).Laxmana who was guarding seetha saw this.

'நில் அடீஇ' என, கடுகினன், பெண் என நினைத்தான்;
வில் எடாது, அவள் வயங்கு எரி ஆம் என விரிந்த
சில் வல் ஓதியைச் செங் கையில் திருகுறப் பற்றி,
ஒல்லை ஈர்த்து, உதைத்து, ஒளி கிளர் சுற்று-வாள் உருவி,

'ஊக்கித் தாங்கி, விண் படர்வென்' என்று உருத்து எழுவாளை,
நூக்கி, நொய்தினில் 'வெய்து இழையேல்' என நுவலா,
மூக்கும், காதும், வெம் முரண் முலைக் கண்களும், முறையால்
போக்கி, போக்கிய சினத்தொடும், புரி குழல் விட்டான்

"Stop" yelled Laxmana.Since she was a female,he did not kill her.He held her hair,kicked her and drew his sword.The angry soorpanaka tried to carry him away by flying in the air.Laxmana dragged her down and cut off her nose,ears and other body parts and left her alive.

RAGE OF SOORPANAKA:

அக் கணத்து அவள் வாய் திறந்து அரற்றிய அமலை,
திக்கு அனைத்தினும் சென்றது; தேவர்தம் செவியும்
புக்கது

The shouts of soorpanaka travelled in 8 directions and even entered the ears of devas.

கொலை துமித்து உயர் கொடுங் கதிர் வாளின், அக் கொடியாள்
முலை துமித்து, உயர் மூக்கினை நீக்கிய மூத்தம்,
மலை துமித்தென, இராவணன் மணியுடை மகுடத்
தலை துமித்தற்கு நாள் கொண்டது, ஒத்தது, ஒர் தன்மை.

Instead of killing her laxmana defiled her body parts.But actually this act was equalant to cutting of the head of langeswara Ravana,who is equal to a mountain.This act is marked the day of death of Ravana.

உயரும் விண்ணிடை; மண்ணிடை விழும்; கிடந்து உழைக்கும்;
அயரும்; கை குலைத்து அலமரும்; ஆர் உயிர் சோரும்;
பெயரும்; 'பெண் பிறந்தேன் பட்ட பிழை' எனப் பிதற்றும்;-
துயரும் அஞ்சி முன் தொடர்ந்திலாத் தொல் குடிப் பிறந்தாள்

Soorpanaka in shame and in pain flew in air,fell in earth,rolled in earth,got tired by crying,hit herself with her hands,felt that her life had left her. "Why was I born as a female?That is why this happened to me" lamented soorpanaka who was born in such a high family so that even sorrow was afraid to hurt her till then.

ஊற்றும் மிக்க நீர் அருவியின் ஒழுகிய குருதிச்
சேற்று வெள்ளத்துள் திரிபவள், தேவரும் இரிய,
கூற்றும் உட்கும் தன் குலத்தினோர் பெயர் எலாம் கூறி,
ஆற்றுகிற்கிலள்; பற்பல பன்னி நின்று; அழைத்தாள்

The blood oozing from soorpanaka's body equalled that of a waterfall.The blood mixed with soil and created mud.Soorpanaka walked in that mud in rage.She called all the names of her relatives,of whom even devas and yema himself were afraid.