plum, sorry, but when i asked the same thing to IR fans to stop rubbishing abt ARR , u said i'm trying to control the hub......Quote:
Originally Posted by Plum
Printable View
plum, sorry, but when i asked the same thing to IR fans to stop rubbishing abt ARR , u said i'm trying to control the hub......Quote:
Originally Posted by Plum
:shock:Quote:
Originally Posted by Plum
Honestlty I am shocked to know that my post can be interpreted as such. Well, if you think that the last few pages are free of malice and rancour, its upto you. But if you really read through the subtext of some of those posts, you can see an intentional dig at ARR, be it saying that awards are meaningless or be it downgrading the brilliance shown in other aspects of music making where ARR shines now. I can appreciate it if these points come purely to w.r.to evaluvation of IR's music but here the intention is deeper than that. Gone are the days of direct confrontation between IR & ARR fans, these days its more like a cold war. Thanks to the volume of his acheivement they dont have the guts to challenge his genius directly. But these fans do take a dig at him indirectly often referring to him as "other MD's", "modern MD's", "pop MD's" and when confronted directly they come up with a cliched superficial reply "ofcourse I appreciate ARR for whatever he acheived". Just check ARR forums for comparison, you will seldom hear anyone lowballing IR, whereas here talks about "other MD's" is very high in proportion. It is done as if telling themselves, to confirm one's own faith that they still prefer IR over others. Such cheap potshots are so common in this forum that I decided not to post here any longer. But I couldn't restrain myself from highlighting that hypocrisy of particular IR fans seeing your valid post.
Sorry that I made it sound like that. I respect the opinions of some of the hubbers like yourself, app_engine etc., . But I really regret that value of my post had to suffer a dip under your perspective, could have been avoided and will be avoided in future :)
:wave:
-- Deleted --
-- deleted --
:shock: but why?? do ARR bashers here stop after posting crap on ARR?? u have made a decent post after all :huh: why feeling bad :D .........i just love IR and his music - but lets not shy away from "questioning" ARR bashing :)Quote:
Originally Posted by thamizhvaanan
Maddy - porutthaar bhoomi aalvaar! therefore am patiently explaining things and putting things in perspective to you - as far as this thread is concerned, we are not interested in bringing other MDs and create unwanted controversies and dilute the focus of the thread!Quote:
Originally Posted by MADDY
pls read what you have written and see if it makes any sense or connection to the intentions behind my request!
I will not stoop down to the level of condescending remarks abt you for misunderstanding me - coz, its my sincere understanding that you have misunderstood my statement - i hope this will make you understand
I guess we can have a separate thread for that too "ARR bashing". because in every thread, some topic will ultimately lead to discussion on ARR either directly, or with different names like Thamizhvaanan mentioned.
when will people accept that IR and ARR are different people, from different backgrounds and different approaches, schools of thought and outlook. when will people stop comparing and accept both as standalone good composers in their own way and dimensions, with no comparisons.
I also dont understand why do most IR fans pick only ARR? How come that segment of IR fans never pick on other composers, including IR's sons? or Other composers in Tamil, Telugu, Malayalam or Hindi? I think people really need to think about this question.
Still if people want to do that, better open a new thread. that ways, some hubbers like me will atleast know which threads to avoid. and that ways, other threads can become IR centric, instead of always ending up in controversial discussions to prove upmanship.
I can understand why Thamizhvanan posted that. Plum, TV was basically trying to question the assumption of sound-quality dichotomy here in these threads. And TV post-ku objection therivikkaravanga modhal-la namma IR fans posts ku yen edhuvume sollala? I mean some of the sound/recording arguments made by IR fans here actually work against them.. idhu theriyama...!
Shows these so-called fans' tolerance to music, and understanding (or the lack of it) of IR's music, let alone ARR's
Just a minor nitpick.Quote:
Originally Posted by thamizhvaanan
Yes, maybe the proportion may be more here but this reaffirmation happens even in ARR and other threads where its irrelevant
yaaawn ... மிக பெரிய கொட்டவி. றெcஒர்ட மாதுங்பா.
Quote:
Originally Posted by irir123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulkster
CR, i agree that HJ bashing and kamal bashing was going on in ARR section, but not without people like rsubras/jacky condemning it vehemently.......we controlled HJ bashing to a large extent by explaining "HJ bashers" how counterproductive that could be.......kamal bashing too was dealt in the same way.......i see a major reduction in both now......IR bashing never happened in our section, atleast for last 2-3 yrs barring some "mock" remarks here and there.......we will wipe off this 100% with master's moderation :)Quote:
Originally Posted by crajkumar_be
atleast we have shown intent to stop these rubbishing of other people in our section and we have worked towards it 8-)
To Maddy and TV.
I felt strongly about posting a reply to TV's post, but I felt that there is an underlying fact in the post even though the general tone could have been done in a better way. I could understand that TV was trying to hit back at me and some other hubbers who were not very particular about the 'sound quality' as a criterion for reviewing a Raaja album.
In defence of sound quality of Raja albums and his retraint in introducing new instruments, the general lament he has been voicing out is the lack of properly trained musicians with devotion that are available in Chennai at his disposal today. With the money he gets(for the projects he chooses to accept) he does try out some innovation in musical patterns but not in variety of new instruments as that would be a costly affair. If ARR tried a new instrument - It is easily understood that the purchase and use is funded by a film producer who pays him the money to experiment. And above all he experiments heavily with electronic and computer software to innovate new sounds while Raja wants an acoustic instrument and a human player of which there is a scarcity in chennai that is affecting him nowadays. Hopefully ARR's musical conservatory succeeds and there are more devoted instrumentalists that come out of it to be used by IR and others too. I hope I have not hurt IR fans or ARR fans in this post and if I had done - certainly that is not my intention.
Why is my post being highlighted? I thought i already apologised for mistaking rahman's intentions in music?
Hulkster and Maddy - peace!
lets get back to IR n global recognition!
Ok, I stirred this up here. Let me make a few things clear:
I have seen hulkster's post before and I wrote about it - I dont think hulkster's was a malicious or a reactive post. He was posting his views on ARR/IR, and partly I agreed with him though I pointed out that he had over-simplified ARR, and he was gracious enough to agree.
The tone of TV's post, was what put me off. I could very well understand that it was 'historical baggage'. Which is why I mentioned about his previous experience with rabid IR fans might have caused him to react so but again, because it is IR, my tone also probably got a bit moralistic :-). Thanks to TV for his gracious reaction again. I am glad the quality of these disagreements have improved in tfmpage over time, including my own outlook.
I started this, let me plea not to continue this discussion on IR-ARR. Let's stick to IR. I dont fully comprehend ARR's genius but I can atleast 'feel' and 'know' that he is one. It must be similar with TV and others in the reverse direction. This is not going to change. Let's live with it :-)
Yup...do we still have to continue this thread as the answers lie with isaivignani. I think if he were to move on into his non-filmi dreams he has to be convinced by a musically-interested business magnate. Otherwise his tons of ideas about creating dimensions in music will be just ideas.
How does criticizing or dissing ARR's works or IR's works tantamount to ARR or IR bashing? [Doing character assasination or taking digs at personal life is wht should be condemned] Why should there be a censor for criticizing music or the techniques an MD uses? After all , this forum is not a bhajanai madam for sure. Comparisons are inevitable. If we don't have the tolerance for criticism of our idol, we better stick to fan groups and not post in a forum like this where there is right of freedom to criticize any MD's work.
I fully agree with thumburu. While music is subjective, there is still a lot of scope for objective analysis. I believe understanding the music of a MD, whom you may not appreciate, increases if there is a fruitful dialog. You may still not be able to appreciate some things but you will atleast know why someone else likes it. I am all for a good dialog, though this thread may not be the right place. There was another thread where there was comparison between the music of Rahman and Raja but I see it has faded to the background now. I too fear that things are slowly going the way of fan clubs. 'I won't criticize your idol. You don't criticize mine' :)
S.Suresh
Plum, Bala and others,
Welcome to Pulikesi :twisted: Manam Thiranthu pesungal no moderator there :)
Thumburu, I am fine with criticism of IR's work. Even I have reservations on the usage of synth in Naan Kadavul. But when you simply vent out against him for his fans' perceived assault on ARR, that is simple, plain politics, which is not something I thought was appropriate here.
On recording, I wrote a lengthy post that got lost when I tried to post it.
I think in the current context recording and proper usage of synth, if at all you use it, is very important. IR has done this well in parts in some movies, not so in others, in recent times, so notably in Naan Kadavul. The tinny synth in Amma Un Pillai interludes drives me crazy(not in the right way). And in Om Sivoham also, there is a particularly inspiring portion with just tabla(dholak?) and Bells, and all of a sudden, you get a thambalam crash of a drum roll(not sure if it is synth or original) I last heard in SV Sekar dramas. This is not professional - I dont know who is to blame here but the end result is disappointing because it is like losing the marathon by a few seconds, because your shoes were ineffective.
Also, I dont know if it is justified by the screenplay but it should be Shiva, Shivoham and Shankara not siva, sivoham and sankara. If a particularly North Indian character sings it, then it shouldnt have been sa. It should have been sha.Maybe it is a south Indian character that sings it on screen. Small matters, but authenticity is important - of course, in an industry where Udit Narayan and Sadhana Sargam mangle tamil repeatedly, this is not so out of the way.
But I am feeling that Naan Kadavul is an important album that will live for long - I know I didnt pay much attention to MSV in the 80's because of what I used to call tishkyoon-interludes, a sort of no-man's-land orchestration. But dig deep into his 80's repertoire even now - you do find some really delectable tunes and songs, if your mind can filter the poor orchestration. I do believe current youngsters will have a similar moment with IR 20 years hence. And that is the point I want to make about recording - it is the icing on the cake. While I appreciate that poor recording quality takes away from current recognition and current experience of music, my belief is that it will not hurt long-term recognition. Who is to say whether ARR/HJ's current output is up-to the recording quality standards of 2028, for instance?
Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by rajasaranam
Will read, "process", "formulate" and reply. Over to your blog :)
Udit narayanan is now a Padma Shree! therefore, I strongly object to this criticism of a central govt recognised Padma Shree artistQuote:
Originally Posted by Plum
Plum,
I have heard lot of North India singers singing Siva and Shiva. As soon as I heard the song the first impression was that it is being sung by a North Indian. Not only Sivoham but everything that follows has a North Indian touch. The whole pronunciation is North Indian in this song.
I agree with you regarding the long term importance of the tune. I still remember being stunned hearing an old Hindi song sung by a singer named Kurshid, "Ghata Gana Gor Gor" and also an unknown singer sing a Bengali song "Aaj Jyotsna Raatein", from an old black and white film. Both of them very scratchy as far as recording was concerned.
I guess the recording quality does matter for the immediate enjoyment but a few years down the line, the tune would stay alive. (Lest this be misconstrued, let me state that this is a general observation and not something supporting IR or opposing ARR/HJ/Yuvan. I too wish the recording quality of Raja's recent songs were better.)
S.Suresh
I am posting this mainly to register how aghast I am to this suggestion. Come on , App, if you do things that specifically targets an audience..it is not art ..it is commerce. While touring an exhibition of art by Picasso, I learnt that at that time, there was no such kind of drawing at all. If only, he had tried to paint in the 'what you see is what you get' paradigm and win at it..a whole new form of art would not have been invented.Quote:
Originally Posted by app_engine
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiru
Dig//
probably yes! but vincent Van gogh was the first to alienate from the conventional painting styles. His Brush strokes were different from the period he lived in and was the forerunner to the art by creating 'Expressionism' - Which meant to distort reality and express the enhance the 'emotion' of a painting. He broke the convention of 'What you see is what you get'.
And there was 'Salvador Dali' a contemporary of 'Picasso' who also pioneered in the filed of 'Modern Art. This is never to undermine Picasso and his 'Cubism' Which stretched the Art further into 20th Century. //End Dig
Suresh, I dont know - I have never heard the lighter sa from that demographic. I dont claim to have visited every 'north indian'(that in itself is a rather generic term, I may be pigeon-holing here) village so I guess you could be right. But somehow I didnt feel the 'rootedness', if I may, on this one.(in the singing and the pronounciation)
Yes,that is my stance on recording quality and that is not to say that recording quality is not needed. Things age anyway, doesnt mean you should give birth to it in an aged form :-)
kiru & rs,
We're in a different world today than those of past genius artists. For them, communication & high speed travel (rather lack of them) were the biggest factors (well, advantages) in getting their works recognized globally much later than their time period.
That aside, my posting was specific to the topic - how can IR's music get global recognition. Even if you're upset with my observations (why, even I'm upset & aghast things are that way), those are cold facts.
However, I'm not a prophet and can only talk about the state of affairs as of today. Who knows, after 100 years, there may be worldwide appeal to HTNI kind of IR stuff and everyone learns it in academies, people create stuff around it etc.
Very simple, take a mathematical genius who teaches at some XYZ college in Thenkasi kind of place - what chance he has to win Nobel prize unless he travels to some university in NA, presents papers etc.
"IR needs to work with talents outside the country, on projects of "real global appeal" (not the TbI kind). For this he has to have "stuff", interest and ofcourse, proper networking."
Yes, this is a fast lane to reach the goal. But his working style is completely different from post-92 MDs. These guys will invite anyone to their recording studio and use others inputs. All you hear is not their music. He is more like a classical music composer. Whether we like it or not IR does everything alone and this makes the task even harder. MIA sampled IR's works into her songs, is IR aware of that? If that happened to any other MD, the first thing he will do is inviting her to perform in one of his songs if possible. But the chances of IR do that kind of act is very minimal. So I don't think IR will collaborate with other musicians unless they play what he has composed. The only way to reach global audience for IR is to work with good directors who use composers like John williams in their films. Only his background scores will take him not songs.
ready start............
judge!
fulla arikkuthu.continue your eye opening inputs. ongala mathiri 4lu peru......ella nenga oruthare pothum IR ku, Global recognition kedaichudum .
IR has to work more at home on what he is doing now. He must work more on more non-film albums like Thiruvasagam, symphony, HTN and NBW.
If he did that the world would come here and recognize him.
I don't think IR should go out pursuing recognition.
After all if IR is gone to the west, who else is here to give us our own music.
App et al, I hope I did not offend any of your sentiments. I do not even a bit of 'aadhangam' that is quite understandable with the accolades Rahman is accumulating. I am happy for Rahman, because he proves that our land is not a 'one-trick pony' with only IR around. The fact that the country has gained a foothold in high-technology area and many young people work all over the world lending credibility to the Indian intelligence is something to be proud of.
IR has his own style and today if it does not sell, it is ok. It still holds musical value. Though people dont agree with Mr. Judge, I think he has a point that IR's BGM/composition skills are the ones which can probably get him the limelight. I think IR can really beat Yanni at his game, but that sort of music needs to be 'marketed' which is kind of longshot now for IR. Today, I really, enjoyed every note of 'indha maan, undhan sondha maan'. THe flute fills, the strings for the high part of the charanam etc. How many people are going to enjoy this song nowadays whether in India or abroad ? Still, this is a fantastic POP/light music. Venkiks said it right - "if IR is gone to the west, who else is here to give us our own music".
Looks like the whole world has become a "melting pot" with the music/art of many cultures borrowing from each other. What is wrong in one person's art still having a 'flavor of the soil' !! In a see of jeans or evening gown or mini skirt clad beauties I see an elegant Indian woman in a 'kancheepuram' silk saree. :)
Digression -
Kiru - I'm elated that ARR had made it big globally and I can't stop bringing him up in my discussions with Michiganders nowadays:-)
I hope he gets Oscars and makes all of us happy. It may also serve the cause of other artists in India who weren't looked at in the past :wink:
End-digression
We all know any amount of our discussions isn't going make a difference on IR (or his managers) in musical aspects / way of handling relations etc. So essentially, all these posts are simply outbursts of 'Adhangam' only:-)
On a different context, if we think of the other genius MSV, things were even worse than that of IR's. He had talent, good will etc. but got ignored even locally. (So much so that BR-IR-AVM had to step in and help him with MTK). And what about global recognition for him?
I think Indians in general, got some global recognition either during pre-independence time period (Tagore / CVR / Bose) or post-liberalisation time period (Aishwarya / ARR...) It appears that the 50 years or so when the country tried to align with Soviet and not the "west" (while claiming to be non-aligned and having a lot of restrictions in trade etc.) didn't do any good for global recognition of the talents there. MSV is the worst hit and IR to some extent. It possibly helped India a lot to stand on its own leg without much support (why even animosity) from the west but it also severely limited the exposure of our talents globally.
Just to make things a little clear, even during 80's, there were any number of items that were on "the restricted list" of imports or with heavily imposed customs duties, even for regular manufacturing industries. Electronics industry, for which there was hardly any local mfr of components, had to face all kinds of trouble with customs to get parts even to produce anything. In that condition, to innovate, design, manufacture etc. needed extraordinary will / miracle etc - especially in the private sector.
It's not tough for me to see how much more difficult it would have been to get good quality musical stuff / recording stuff, which was a big handicap for all artists then. (Even sports was heavily clipped as I've read so many laments from the likes of Gavaskar of non-avaialbility of quality gear. He has mentioned that even Indian-made high quality stuff had to be bought from abroad as they were purely for export. I still remember people having to pay in $ to get Bajaj Chetak scooter if they didn't want to wait for years).
Considering such conditions, any achivement by MSV - IR (during their prime) on technological side is praise worthy. Not many youngsters of today can understand the struggle of people to get quality stuff as late as 80's and it's easy for them to talk about the "poor recording quality" of IR songs etc.
app_engine
Impressive post, but big issue
how with all limitations, sound quality of priya, jhony, nizhalgal is still standing out compared to Nandalala and the likes!!! he should have kept the quality the same atleast.
My salangai oli "Cassette" that i bought when I bought my first "tape recorder" produces better sound than Nandala CD played in my home theater system with all possible sound technology logo.
One thing is very clear. IR didnt have any interest any more, but at the same time doesnt want to miss any assignment which gives him 25L with out moving an inch. Thats prob why he also throwed away his big archestra and just going with 15-20 ppl.
we are all justifying his act with our own views and hoping that he or someone close to him will take this message to him.
I know few ppl here, who are close to IR, but in front of IR, they talk everything but music. May be they are affraid. i talk to him couple of times, but more like a fan than a friend, so I had to keep my mouth shut (+ when u see him u just dont have words)
Hopefully ppl close to him and regular hubbers here take the courage to pass on the message.
njv - valid points - but who will take the message to him ?? and will he listen ? at least one expected that if and when IR works with fresh faces like Mysskin, the recording will be better - while NK recording is good, NL falls behind - noone knows whats going on !
May i ask what's wrong with Nandalala recording? I am able to enjoy the melodies well. :roll:
njv,
The comparison on recording / production quality has to be actually between the priya cassette and some top selling album of TFM today (e.g. shivaji).
The reason ? simple - resource allocation. People come to IR today because he can ensure musical quality at ABYSMALLY LOW PRICES. I don't think he can command much to the producer today - be it musicians / equipment etc. I don't think (or don't want to believe) that it's because of IR's lack of interest in sound quality. At this stage, I think this is all he can afford:-(
Once again reminds me of MSV's plight in late 80's...
ITs funny to hear the wild speculations regarding reasons for IR's alleged recording issues. Firstly according to me i dont think there is anything wrong with Nandhalala recording and i am saying this after listening on the web and not the CD. Atleast there was nothing which jumps out and disrupts my listening pleasure. I only saw some people complain that the Keyboards and percussion were of cheap quality and supposedly IR used cheap ones for no reason or maybe to save cost?
and i dont think its right to compare NK with this that was totally a different kind of music than NL which was deliberately sedate and subdued. again comparing Priya and Johny or nizhalgal is the same issue diferent periods, different kind of music resulting in different recording experiences. Why even then i found a couple of songs from Agni Nakshtram which was a top class and hip album, but there were some issues with couple of songs recording which minor but noticeable. SO its not that only recent IR albums have issues.
I agree that the recording has been inconsistent for IR albums in the past and even in recent times. But again i somehow did not find anything which caused me not to enjoy the good songs. AS i said earlier these are probably a result of some inconsistencies in mixing and during the making of the final CD. and i dont think IR spends much time nowadays in involving himself with the mixing and final recording process. I think the fact that he involves himself so much in writing the music for the entire orchestra as well composing the songs makes him pay less attention to the final mixing and recording of the music into CD's. Again this is my opinion only which i think is more logical than resons like IR has no money. Now people might ask but what about earlier when he was doing more movies but again there were a lot of inconsistencies then too(lost in a huge bunch of movies he did then) we just had casettes and no cd's then, and maybe the people who did the final mixing and recording process did better jobs atleast for the good albums. and ofcourse IR was younger then, Just my sheer guess.
So people relax, IR is not broke and he still has the entire orchestra(note that he does not do many movies nowadays so its possible not everyone from the old orchestra still exists as they need to get paid as well) and producers/directors will pay him the due fees which he demands because lets face it people who come to him for music are for the reason that they only want him and not the market acceptability and hence pay is not a criteria.