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Agree with you PR. As Plum says the position is probably at the other end of the spectrum. Other than the song you quoted, I always feel that VM's words in 'Karuthamma' and 'Kizhaku Cheemayile' probably brought out the nativity much better than the tunes themselves. I guess app_eng position is somewhat close to what I feel. While there are songs in the Rahman-VR I like a lot for the lyrics, I would also say that the lyrics of IR-VM combination was probably much better.
Just heard "Melle Melle", a malayalam version of "vaLLi vaLLi". MG Srikumar has done the honours, and I'd gladly direct all detractors of IR's voice in this song to this one. I have no qualms in saying that IR's version carried more verve, enthusiasm and joy than Sreekumar's 'polished', 'technically correct' version. Sometimes, technique is over-rated(vide Sanjay Manjrekar vs Sehwag)
Isn't it absurd to conclude that Vairamuthu is a greater Tamil film icon than Raaja just because he overstayed the latter? In general, the stature of all-time great music composers are much bigger than that of all-time great lyricists (with the exception of perhaps Kannadasan, whose stature might be comparable to MSV's), no?
equa, ange dhaan agenda irukku. From a 'mass' perspective, a good tune with bad lyrics is more likely to be succesful than vice-versa. Exceptions can be provided ofcourse but why else would you see hasili phisili dominating the charts? It takes a Kannadasan to transcend that equation, and it took an IR(with due respect to MSV) to change MGR-Sivaji songs to IR-ARR songs. (as an aside, now, I argue that this is as much to do with MSV's submissive personality as probably with the circumstances so I'd infact say that MSV's phenomenal output deserved to be recognised by the mass as MSV songs instead of Sivaji-MGR but thats the reality.)
Has Vairamuthu transcended that equation? Really, look at your Musical CD compilations in the typical music showrooms - how many Vairamuthu compilations you see as compared to IR or ARR? The answer to that should convince our friends but it won't - because they dont want to be convinced.
Plum,
Which Malaylam movie is the 'Melle Melle' song from? Any links?
No, I dont know. It may even be the dubbing of Deiva Vakku. I only have the song. Rajasaranam must know as I most likely downloaded it from his account
Totally agree with you!Quote:
Originally Posted by equanimus
Some more points to note:
-With the arrival of a strong MD like IR, even the hitherto unappreciated area like BGM has caught the attention of the viewers ( some are even so emphatic that this "tech expert" - BGM- competes with the "PM" - direction - for top honor for the project result) & obviously no contribution of lyricist is needed there.
-Except for a few movies for peculiarity's sake, there had not been multiple MD's asked to do any movie (S-G are considered one and not two, BTW, for remuneration). Can we say the same about kavingars? Rarely!
-Though director / producer has a say in selecting the kavingar, with the advent of IR, it's mostly MD's choice to pick a lyricist. That hasn't changed much even now (expect for one BR, who preferred a lyricist to dump the MD? Hardly any - OTOH, ARR - why even YSR - can at his will dump VM or any lyricist from a project)
When I said Balachandar movies from 1970s I had these songs in my mind...Quote:
Originally Posted by app_engine
1) Ethir Neechal
2) Adhisaya Raagam
3) Junior Junior
4) Kamban Yemaandhan
5) Dheivam thantha veedu
6) Ezhu swarangalil
You remembered "Yennada Polladha Vazhagai"? I do not think I shall pursue this debate any more.
This is slightly off topic.
IR has been doing some stage programs for few years now. Can any one of "IR fans" give me a video link to a VM song performed when IR is on stage?
That was only to compare with 'vaLLi vaLLi' which was quoted as a bad example from IR's output. Also to stress the point that not all of KB film songs were high-quality lyrics and he had his share of 'இதுக்குப்போயி அலட்டிக்கலாமா's :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by genesis
Songs you've quoted had nice lines, yes.
Just that they got overshadowed by other propaganda songs during that time period.
Plum..astute observation. IR is more concerned with the "concept" than with the details...same goes for sound ..it takes a backseat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Plum
In software terms, he gives high priority to "Design/Architecture"(backend) more than the "User interface".
We are in violent agreement that both should be there. But some people would like to use this to ..whatever..
Another song which will be quite difficult to "port" - moondRAm piRai's narikkadhai :-)
Even kaNNe kalai mAnE is very custom made and one would find it extremely difficult to port into another movie / situation, despite the song belonging to a standard genre (lullaby).
While 'yEh zindagi' got shipped as 'en vAzhvilE', it would have been very difficult to move 'poongAtRu, pudhidhAnadhu' to another movie.
Only vAnengum thanga vinmeeNkaL & pon mEni uruguthE could have been easily placed in other movies as such.
BM / Kamal / IR - genius combo!
Did they do any other movie together?
Nari kadhai had a different tune in hindi(ek dafa ek jungal tha - pretty ordinary). It wasn't and isn't even noticed. Actually, this should give the clue that ir-bm were trying some sort of customiztion in sadma. I suspect gulzar might have had some inputs, too, and if my reading is correct, that would show ir's respect for gulzar's stature. The nari kadhai especially even sounds like tuned for gulzar's lyrics. I think you have to earn ir's respect as a lyricist. While vm deserved to earn this, I think their personal differences might have killed that relationship. This is being extended to make it sound like ir doesn't respect *any* lyricist
Was watching the 'poonkadavE thaL thiravAi' song yesterday. In the second interlude the instruments make a bubbling type of sound and later the violins slowly build up. On screen, there heroine goes inside the water, bubbles come up and later the heroine in slow motion emerges from the water. The violins so perfectly match the scene. Here is one song where you do not know if the director explained the scene is full detail or inspired by the interlude he matched the scene perfectly. My guess is the former.
one doubt :) final touch-up'la ... i mean while bgm'ing, maaththiyirukkalaam illayaa ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureshs65
ps: ariyaa siruvan(me) thappaa pEsiyirundhaa mannichchikkonga.
Sarna,
I doubt it because this is not something which seems added on and fits the flow of the song very well. I am not sure if they change much as far as the song is concerned in the bgm but I could be wrong. I have no clue on the recording techniques but my feeling is this song was definitely constructed fully and something was not added later.
'poongathavE, thAzh thiRavAi' - I don't think there's any addition to the song for the "on-screen version". It's the same as in the record.
It's not surprising considering this is the 7th movie where IR-BR were colloborating (and perhaps the best songs in that combo ever) & their friendship / alliance etc. is not unknown here.
Personally, I don't like the picturization of 'poongathavE' (or any song of nizhalgaL - may be 'pon mAlaippozhudhu' isn't too bad but other two were poor IMO).
Was listening to 'vanitAmaNI' from Vikram. I noticed that in the first charanam, after the first two lines, when Janaki starts sings 'idhayam thathom' the percussion instruments cease playing!!! The guitars play in the background and almost simulate the heartbeat. The charanam then proceeds without any percussion instruments backing it, only the guitar backs the charanam throughout. The second charanam though has the drums playing along. Any clue on what happens onscreen that made Raja do this? Or did he orchestrate for 'idayam thathom' part? It has been a long time since I watched this movie. I had to rewind the tape a couple of times to be sure that there no percussion instrument playing!!! The song flows so well that you don't realize it!!
BTW, for those who are missing the Raja of 'vanitAmaNI' I suggest you listen to 'nilavu varun nEram' from JM. He is still as youthful as he was when he gave music for Vikram. It is just that many of us refuse to come out of the 80s!!
It is true and it has been bothering me for sometime now. Even I find it intriguing that each time I tried identifying the exact point when it stopped, the flow of the song was such that I never could exactly identify when the percussions stop.
In fact there is another song.. and it is only coincidental that it stars Kamal again. This time the song is the evergreen 'Idhayil kadhai ezhudhum' from unnal mudiyum thambi. Try to follow the rhythm in the chararam... when the songs go to its peak in the charanam, at some point the percussions stop suddenly and you hear only Chitra (or SPB) singing... interesting!!!
sivasub,
Coincidentally I saw another song on TV yesterday which had similar characteristics. It was the 'mANkuyilE' song from 'Karagatakaran'. Towards the end of the charanam the percussion stops and the beat is provided by keyboard/guitar. The backing is totally western here but the song being sung is Tamil folk. Not for a minute do you feel the absence of percussion instruments nor for a minute do you feel this is anything other than a folk song. Raja is the master weaver who can weave so many threads together and come up with a unified design.
Song picturization is to Bharatiraja what aesthetic art direction is to T. Rajendar, is what acting is to Abbas... They just ain't made for each other.
Yes, classic!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureshs65
And it fits the ongoings on the screen well (karagAttam & the maiyyal between hero / heroine intertwined interestingly)
அப்படி ஒட்டு மொத்தமா சொல்லிட முடியாதுங்க. மிக அருமையாக எடுக்கப்பட்டவையும் உண்டு (முதல் மரியாதை, 16 வயதினிலே, டிக் டிக் டிக், ஒரு கைதியின் டைரி, கடலோரக்கவிதைகள்)Quote:
Originally Posted by SVN
SVN,
I would probably take the middle path. I don't think Barathiraja is so bad as TR or Abbas. They are in a league of their own :). Given that he was given some of the best music by Raja, it is obviously a challenge to rise upto that. There have been others who have been even worse and in some movies the picturization has been decent, as app_eng has mentioned.
I would like add "காதல் ஓவியம்" to this list... (Best semi-classical album ever by IR)Quote:
Originally Posted by app_engine
I've immensely enjoyed the picturization of the following songs by BR :
-sendhoorappoovE
-manjakkuLichchu aLLi mudichchu
-Attukkutti muttai ittu
-poongAtRu thirumbumA
-all the kuttikkutti songs of MM
-vetti vEru vAsam
-idhu oru nilAkkAlam (style followed by many today but without the aesthetics)
-poo malarndhida nadamidum pon mayilE
-adi AththAdee
-kodiyilE malligaippoo
-pOguthE pOguthE
-ABC nee vAsi
-pon mAnE, kObam Eno
These are just from 4 films that I mentioned earlier, there may be many others as well ( I quickly remember 'vizhiyil vizhundhu', sweet song nicely done on-screen as well, also 'arisi kuththum akkA makaLE' - rustic and funny).
Basically, whenever he mended the songs with the movie's storyline, they could be enjoyed. Obviously 'kanavu scenes' with 'veLLai dEvadhaikaL' etc are his weakest area, but when he got a song firmly placed in the movie's flow, he's a winner.
One of the few directors who can take us into the story's environment during the songs nicely. To my knowledge, the scenes that one see in 'manjakkuLichchu' were first-of-its-kind for TF.
Yes, I agree that some of BR's songs have been pretty well presented (whenever there was a certain level of realism, I think they were good). I guess I was dwelling on his worst song picturisations, while writing that comment. On hind sight, the Abbas T Rajender comparison was a bit too much ;)
SVN,
I guess Abbas and TR would have been upset with you for usurping their position :D
SVN,
I guess Abbas and TR would have been upset with you for usurping their position and giving it to BR :D
Tunes of IR has been used in Hindi movies not only By the maestro
himself , but some of the MDs have even copied his tunes. For
example, the song "KOYAL SI TERI BOLI" in the Hindi movie "Beta" was an utter copy of "Kondai cheval koovum neram".
IR s tunes were used even in the movie "Cheeni Kum" of Amitabhji,music by IR himself. In this movie, he has used the tune of the song "Mandram vandha thendralukku" in happy moods and situations. Here also the tune fits well, while in the original "Mouna
Ragam" the tune works out as a pathos ,while the hero is worried and in a sad mood. That is the brilliance of the one and only ILAYARAJA.
The original was not by IR. It was MD'ed by K Bhagyaraj (possibly assisted by S-G in orchestration)Quote:
Originally Posted by C2
I think S-G did it officially.
Anyway, here is another to add to your theory of "Vairamuthu's contribution to applying Science in TAmil lyrics", a_e:
"thanneerukkum manneNNaikkum kalyaNamAm saami"
- to imply a incompatible match. This time, not a bad comparison, one would think.
சாருவின் சமீபத்திய கட்டுரை "தமிழ் சினிமா பாடல்கள்: ஒரு பண்பாட்டு வீழ்ச்சியின் அடையாளம்" என்பதிலிருந்து..
"இளையராஜாவின் மகத்தான வெற்றிக்கு ஒரு முக்கியமான காரணம், வைரமுத்து. "
இந்த விஷயத்தில் எப்படியோ நானும் சாருவும் ஒரே அலைநீளத்தில் பயணிக்கிறோம் என்றே தோன்றுகிறது..
பாராட்டுக்கள் சாரு.
Absolutely idiotic statement!
If one walks through the best 1000 songs of IR, the % penned by VM won't go beyond single digit. It's a fact that there has to be a lyricist for a movie song and VM happens to be better of the lot after Kannadasan. It doesn't mean a brilliant composer has to have the same one to taste success.
IMVSO, IR could have done better globally if he moved away from cinema and did pure instrumentals!
I don't know what's Charu's problem with IR. It seems there's no end to his vomitting :-(
இசையமைப்பாளர்கள் வந்துகொண்டே இருக்கிறார்கள். ஆனால் எப்படி ராஜா அப்படி நுழைந்து ஒரு வரலாறாக மாறியிருக்கிறாரோ அதே போல கவிஞர்கள் எல்லாம் எழுதிக்கொண்டிருக்க, வைரமுத்து வரவும் தமிழ்த் திரைப்பட உலகில் ஒரு வரலாறுதான்.
மற்ற இசையமைப்பாளர்களின் இசைகளுக்கு மத்தியில் ராஜாவின் இசையை எப்படி தனியான ஒரு விஷயமாக பிரத்யேகமாக அணுகுகிறோமோ அதுபோல, வைரமுத்துவின் பாடல் வரிகளையும் அணுகித்தான் தீரவேண்டும்.
ராஜாவின் காலத்திற்கு வரும்போது வைரமுத்துவை ஒப்பிடுவதே சாலச் சிறந்தது. கண்ணதாசன் மூத்தவர். அவரின் பெரும்பாலான பாடல்கள் ராஜாவிற்கு முந்தைய காலத்தில் எழுதப்பட்டுள்ளதால் கண்ணதாசனை ராஜாவின் காலத்திற்கு முந்தைய இசையமைப்பாளர்களோடு இணைத்து ஒப்பிடுவதே சரியாக இருக்கும். அதைவிட்டு, ராஜாவின் இசைக்காலத்திலும் கவியரசை விடாமல் பிடித்துக்கொண்டிருப்பது சரியான அணுகுமுறை அல்ல.
ராஜாவின் இசை எப்படி ஆத்மார்த்தமாக இருக்கிறதோ, அதுபோல வைரமுத்துவின் பாடல் வரிகளும்.
சாரு இந்த விஷயத்தில் சரியாகவே கணித்திருப்பதாகத் தோன்றுகிறது.
பொத்தாம்பொதுவாக " Absolutely idiotic statement!" எனச் சொல்வதை பெரிதாக எடுத்துக்கொள்ளாமல் ராஜாவின் மீதிருக்கும் அதீதப் பற்றினாலேயே எனப் புரிந்து கொண்டு நடையை கட்டலாம்.
IR - Vairamuthu
IR - Vaira muthuvai evvalavu kashta pattu
kavidhai ezhudha vaithu irupar enru enaku
purigiradhu..
Kadhal padal enralum - Iyarkai - Varnanai enru
neraiya kashta paduthi irukirar Vairamuthu.
IR ku - Characterisation velipadanam padal varigalil...
IR in miga kadumaiyana muyarchiyil dhan
VAiramuthu vin kavidhaigal - IR padalil
Oligiradhu..
Even now,
New Lyricist with IR - Kavidhaigal nanraga irukiradhu..
Karanam - IR ai thavira veru edhuvum ilai.
Oru Kavinyanin Kavidhaiyai
Kaetka vaikum Nalla ennam - Music Director
kaiyil dhan irukiradhu.
Indha vishayathil - IR - Vairamuthuku
Dhrogam seiyavillai.
Vaira muthu vin kavidhaiyai puriyum padi
Isaiyin Oli alavai - Nyayamaga payan paduthiya
oru Nalla manidhar.. Ialaiya Raaja....
Kavidhaiku kashta paduthi irundhalum - Arumai puriyum padi
isai amaitha oru Music Director - IR.
hahahhaha.....
kazhudhaiku theriyuma karpoora vasanai.......
Venki ram,
you and Chaaru - both are too good.
IR ai patri -Engalai nalla vidhamaga sindhika vaikum
nalla athmakal..
Chaaru kitayum sollunga.
indha madhiri ularalai elam thodaranam nu......
Vaazhaga ungal thondu...
இளையராஜாவும் வைரமுத்துவும் அவரவர் துறைகளில் முத்திரை பதித்தவர்கள்.
இருவருமே அதீத திறமைசாலிகள். இவரால்தான் மற்றொருவருக்கு வெற்றி சாத்தியம் என்பது வேடிக்கையான கூற்று.
எண்பதுகளுக்கு முன்பே இளையராஜா திரையிசையில் முத்திரை பதித்துவிட்டார். கண்ணதாசன்,புலமைப்பித்தன்,பஞ்சு அருணாசலம் போன்றவர்கள்தான் அதற்குக் காரணம் என்றெல்லாம் வகைபிரித்தல் இசைக்கலைஞனுக்கு செய்யும் உச்சபட்ச துரோகமாக இருக்கும்.
ஷங்கர்-கணேஷ்,சந்திரபோஸ் போன்ற சமகால இசையமைப்பாளர்களுக்கும் வைரமுத்து பாடல்கள் எழுதி ரஸிக்கவைத்திருக்கிறார். எந்த இசையமைப்பாளருக்கு எழுதினாலும் கேட்கும்போதே இது வைரமுத்துவின் பாடல் என கண்டுபிடித்துவிடுமளவு திறமையான சொல்லாக்கம் கொண்ட படைப்பாளி.
திறமைசாலிகளுக்குக் கதவுகள் தாமாகவே திறந்துகொள்கின்றன.
பிரபலங்களைக் குறித்து மாற்றுக் கருத்துகள் கூறியே கவனஈர்ப்பினை தனதாக்கிக்கொள்ள முயல்வோரின் வாதம் இது.
முதலாவதாக "Absolutely idiotic statement! "
இரண்டாவதாக "கழுதைக்கு தெரியுமா கற்பூர வாசனை"
இன்னும் என்னென்ன வார்த்தைகளை கொட்டப் போகிறார்களோ தெரியவில்லை.
அய்யா டிவிஷங்கர்,
ஒரு நல்ல இசையின், இசை வாத்தியங்களின் மூலக்கூறுகளை அலசுவதில் நீங்கள் நிபுணத்துவம் பெற்றிருக்கலாம். அதுபோலவே சாருவும் ஏதோ தனக்குத் தெரிந்த தமிழ் எழுத்துக்களில் கொஞ்சம் நிபூணத்துவம் பெற்றிருக்கிறார். நீங்கள் ராஜாவின் இசையமைப்பை எப்படி அணுகுகிறீர்களோ அதுபோல அவரும் ராஜாவின் இசையில் வரும் பாடல் வரிகளை அணுகி அதில் வைரமுத்துவின் பங்கினை பெருமைப் படச் சொல்லியிருக்கிறார்.
இதில் கழுதைக்குத் தெரியுமா? குரங்கிற்குத் தெரியுமா என மனக் காழ்ப்புகளை கொட்டுவதில் பிரயோசனம் இல்லை.
குப்தர்களின் ஆட்சியை நம் வரலாற்று பாடப் புத்தகத்தில் இந்தியர்களின் பொற்காலம் என்று படிப்பதில்லையா? அதுபோலவே ராஜாவின் இசைப் பயணத்தில் வைரமுத்தோடு இருந்த காலங்கள் ஒரு பொற்காலம். இதில் எனக்கு முழு உடன்பாடு உண்டு.
இதே கருத்தை சாரு வழிமொழிந்ததினாலேயே நான் அவரோடு ஒத்துப் போகிறேன் எனச் சொல்லியிருந்தேன்.
மறுபடியும் சாருவின் வார்த்தைகளை வாசியுங்கள்.
"இளையராஜாவின் மகத்தான வெற்றிக்கு ஒரு முக்கியமான காரணம், வைரமுத்து."
பல முக்கிய காரணங்கள் இருக்கும்போது அதில் ஒன்றாக வைரமுத்து இருந்திருக்கிறார் என்பதாலேயே "ஒரு" என்ற வார்த்தையை உபயோகப் படுத்தி இருக்கிறார்.