Precisely thats why I said the film is very very Nolan. But those things did not flow seamlessly unlike Memento. Anyway may be I will change my opinion after a revisit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bala (Karthik)
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Precisely thats why I said the film is very very Nolan. But those things did not flow seamlessly unlike Memento. Anyway may be I will change my opinion after a revisit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bala (Karthik)
MakkaLE, indha padam evvaLo hype-aiyum thaangum.
Nolar - unga kaala konjam kaaminga :bow:
http://hawkeyeview.blogspot.com/2010...vies-ever.html (aff course didn't read the post/review... thalaippa vechu post panninen)Quote:
Originally Posted by P_R
Please elaborate. For me, "clever", "interesting", "gimmick" and "convoluted" resonateQuote:
Originally Posted by kid-glove
Thuyaram illa, Thambi.. Makkals reaction after seeing the last shot of the film..Quote:
Originally Posted by ilayapuyalvinodh_kumar
Looking forward :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by kid-glove
Spoiler warning: Audience Reaction To Inception's Ending
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Courtesy: Cinemablend.com
One of the comments in youtube:
Same reaction in Japan too, then an applause and then a guy beside me said "Dang...I forgot to eat my popcorn."
:lol:
There's a difference between a device and a gimmick. The former is of course clever and interesting while the latter is annoying. What Nolan opts here, three or four levels of dreamshare, the complexity is a "device" and not a gimmick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bala (Karthik)
I would distinguish a “device” from a “gimmick.” A device is a tool - it could be editing pattern (non-chronological pattern) or the concept it self like several "convoluted" levels of Dreamshare (specific traits of Anterograde amnesia in Memento, rational explanation for Magical illusion in The Prestige) – it grabs our attention and holds us to it. The device turns into a "gimmick" if it outstrips the purview of the character and story and is a needless 'bait', and a parlor trick to gloss over poor writing. A Device registers and compounds the psychological resonance of what the audience sees & feels - and gives a coherent 'shape' overall, A gimmick is just an 'excuse'to sway the audience. I personally believe Nolan opts for complexity in levels of dreamshare as a "device" that advances the plot and deepens the psychological resonance of specific characters, Cobb and Fischer Jr, before implanting. And after 'Inception', both the characters are unaware, in Cobb's case (we, the audience, always with him, are also equally unsure), his specific 'curing'. Saying more, would spoil the fun if you haven't watched it. So for both these characters, the device, dream-within-dream-within-dream, functions specifically. Doesn't cut across as needless gimmick. Perhaps more of a mild 'tease' in its clever usage.
Some one said in one of the reviews, " Kubrick would have felt very proud...". That's true. For film lovers who have been Following Nolan's track record, his 7th wonder just turns out to be a mind boggling, amazing experience.
Nolan, with all his brilliance, arrogance, intellectual pride, confidence and of course with little bit of ego :) has thrown up an open challenge to the audience and daringly says, " Catch me if you can". A roller-coaster hell of a ride is guaranteed for anyone who catches up with his dreams. It's definitely not a film to be watched in a casual mood. If you understand and get along with the film in the first 15 minutes, you are saved, otherwise you will be "kicked" out mercilessly.
This is undoubtedly Nolan's top notch work. But one thing, most of the audience who came with that usual expectation to watch an action packed, graphic oriented ordinary Hollywood flick were greatly disappointed (come on man, I'm supposed to be a film buff :D )
For me, I should say that Matrix served as a fantastic base to understand and enjoy this work of genius. Thanks to the Wachowski bro's (whatever happened to them??)
But unlike Matrix, the entire plot itself is not so fresh. We have the usual hero - villain stuff, the villain threatening to destroy the hero's family and the reluctant designer later making up her mind to join the team etc., are all quite regular themes. But, it's the overall idea and the tenacity with which Nolan has constructed this mind game is all that matters.
In Inception, as one scene after another (or dreams, rather) unfolds, it becomes a fantastic experience. And, towards the denouement, Nolan deftly wraps up one dream after another (or scenes, rather) and gives a perfect finish, something similar to his own Memento formula. Hats off !! :clap:
If you succeed in following up the dream sequences one by one, starting from the aeroplane, the van, the building, the hotel, the polar region, Cobb's dream land etc., then you will begin to respect and revere his brilliance and hard work.
P.S. :- Just to make sure, I suggest that you take a totem alongwith you ( a bambaram is highly recommended :) ).
Cobb : Thank God! I've managed to plant this wonderful idea of writing this beautiful, insightful (!???) review in rangan's mind which will fetch him accolades in the hub circle.
Nolan & other hubbers : :banghead: :argh:
rangan's wife : yenga, ezhundiringa. Sundayana pagal kanavu kanradhe unga velaya pochu. Endhirichi sapida vanga.
rangan : :roll: :confused2: :fatigue: adhukulla mathiyanam ayidicha ? Evening Inception-nu oru padam poga poren. Neeyum variya ?
No chat history in Facebook :?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid_316
ennakku expectation thaange mudiyale..paathe aaganum...
Still figuring some parts out, in the meanwhile, enakkoru sandhEgamNNE
1) Cobb stays back in Limbo to search and meet Saito. Isn't Limbo populated only by projections in Cobb's subconscious before he got into Limbo. I for one expected it would be the 'same' world as the one Mal and Cobb had built when they lived there for 50 years. How come Saito is there?
2) Assuming Saito is somehow there, how come he has aged several times more than Cobb?
3) When the van drives off the bridge it is the 1st kick in Level 1. But at that time there is NO kick in Level 2 (Hotel). So it is understandable that Cobbs, Eams, Ariadne and Fischer are not kicked out of Level 3 (Snowy place). However Arthur himself is only in Level 2 (Hotel) and should have been woken up, right ? Why does he too continue in sleep till they hit the water?
P-R, regarding 2), i had the same doubt as u...but then Saito is wounded right from level 1 and dies in the level 3 where as Cobb does so at a latter level...maybe that explains the degeneration of Saito compared to Cobb....Quote:
Originally Posted by P_R
Wikipedia la kadhai padikkaama enakku kandippa Padam puriya pOradhu illai.
Sathya, actually it is NOT that complicated.Quote:
Originally Posted by sathya_1979
In fact one of the legitimate charges that can be laid on Nolan is that he sometimes explains a little too much in dialogue. You can sense that he is anxious that the film be understood. He pretty much carries the audience along.
dhairiyamA padam paarunga :-)
Thank you! Office la oru naalu friends paakkaNumnu sollitrukkaanga. Next week kandippaa paappEn :DQuote:
Originally Posted by P_R
1) is simple right. Cobb is thrown into Limbo only when the van hits the water in Level1, as he is drowned here. Saito is already in Limbo because he over-bleeds to death because of fatal wounds, and is therefore considerably aged (2). Since Cobb's body in level 1 is drowned, he imagines himself to be washed off to shores in Limbo.Quote:
Originally Posted by P_R
Limbo is different from Mal-Cobb. It's a "collective" dreamscape. Some of Cobb's is thrown around. But Saito's architecture is distinctly 'oriental' - presumably built/imagined it to his taste and the guards are his projections.
Notice how he eats and is seated in the table in a very similar posture to the one in the very first 'audition' dreamshare. The very first one we encounter, where again Mal interrupts their heist by shooting the point man, Arthur - that one is molded with Saito's dream as the "base" and has Cobb playing agent "Charles" to get onto Saito's good side. But since Saito is well trained in dreamshare, he suspects Cobb and Arthur. Then Mal disrupts the plan. From there, they jump to third world country in some revolution/rebellion, with Nash's (who turns out to be a traitor, ratting out everybody) dream as base, but they're all deluding Saito as if it's his - which ultimately fails when Saito makes out from material of carpet (therefore sort of a totem to figure out some other dream he is in) and eventually, they all get 'kicked' back to the train.
And talking of Limbo, only two are thrown into this state. Saito - the architecture shows. Then Cobb - the kids are his projections here. As 'shores' has resonance to his place. We even see in one sequence, Mal and Cobb making sand moulds down in the beach (in 'reality' one assumes).
Level 1 - Van down the bridge. Is the Kick.Quote:
3) When the van drives off the bridge it is the 1st kick in Level 1. But at that time there is NO kick in Level 2 (Hotel). So it is understandable that Cobbs, Eams, Ariadne and Fischer are not kicked out of Level 3 (Snowy place). However Arthur himself is only in Level 2 (Hotel) and should have been woken up, right ? Why does he too continue in sleep till they hit the water?
Level 2 - Hotel level - the 'falling' down motion plus explosion of Lift functions as the kick.
Level 3 - Explosion in snowy Eastern European place. Pulling the whole concrete down..
Level 4. Is the level where Cobb is absolved of Mal. That level has specific dreamshare as the 'base', the architectural dreamscape that Cobb had built with Mal (and they have none other constructed) - Adriane joins with Cobb and Fischer (almost dead, but in a 'transient' state). Fischer is in deep sleep/coma in this level. And is kicked down.
Adriane deliberately falls down here. Kicks Fischer down the building. And they both join level 3 at the right time. Since the 'kicks' are synced with Level 2, and Level 1 - they are all pushed to Level 1. And the only two, who aren't 'kicked' back are Cobb and Saito.
K_G,
Now Nolan has hacked ur id.. Yes, U can take this as a compliment as well.. :-)
Ivar padatha specialla slow motionla repeat senju 25 vaatti paathirukkaNum. illEnna :notworthy: for his observation, memory and narrative skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaybaskar
Arthur wakes up only when the van hits the water. During the process of the Van's falling down, Arthur experiences a non-gravitational atmosphere.
Ah...ok. Makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by kid_glove
On, 3 , I still didn't get why Arthur was not kicked back to Level 1 when the Van hit the bridge. He was the ONLY person in Level 2 at that time. Isn't it ?
k_g, are you taking this as a compliment? ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaybaskar
adhaan yEn 'ngREn.Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaybaskar
He should have woken up, right ?
It is understandable that the others did not wake up, as they were one level below (in Level 3). Arthur was only in Level 2.
Nolan would be cringing for sure. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by P_R
Thanks Ajay & Sathya. As always, you're too kind. :wink:
Can't vouch that this is 100% true. Need to watch the film again.
Innovative thinking :2thumbsup: Brilliant try :clap: and superb output :notworthy: with awesome shots :thumbsup:
ellaarum serndhu enakku tension jaasthi panniteenga! Padam naan ippove paarthaagaNume. Ippo naan enna seiyya :mad:
What happens in Level 1 would impact Level 2 and Level 3 so on, but they are still not strong enough to 'kick' 'em back. That's why we see 'tumbling' effect first in Level 2 when the van hits the bridge in Level 1. But not a 'kick'. The 'kick' needs a bit more magnitude, one presumes.Quote:
Originally Posted by P_R
They sync with different music tracks to know specific time to hit the breakpoint. Point man, Arthur updates 'em, and keeps the clock, so to speak)
Usually a 'descent' down motion gives the 'kick' to wake 'em up in every state. This is true of dreams in general.
Of course, this is why Fischer is kicked down in Level 4 and Adriane falls down deliberately - to push up to higher level (where again the Turkish monument in Level 3 is pulled down and Lift in Level 2 is pulled down plus the van hitting the water in full descent - kicking all the way down to Level 1.
And the pivotal suicide scene, Mal, assuming the perceived 'reality' to be a 'dream', falls down the building to jump back to 'actual' reality (Which we assume doesn't exist as we don't follow Mal's POV). And one possible suggestion is it's Cobb who is deluding this state to be 'reality'. And the audience are convinced enough of this 'reality' as we are following his POV. But we can't be so sure. This troubles me well enough to watch the film again. :)
Three things (ideas) I liked most in this film
1) the time difference
2) dream nesting and hence
3) the multiplying time difference
and the fourth I liked is the two kids and the hero can not see them in his dream and in climax...
btw namma murugadass 7aam Arivu itha vachu than edukkurarunu pesikiduranga :lol: like Gajini.
If Murugadoss was to copy 'Inception' then he should've probably hired a dream stealer and extracted the idea from Nolan. Doesnt make sense..
P_R,
I am not getting your point. Fischer initiates the dream. Enter first level. Cobb, Adraine, Arthur, Eames, Yousuf, Saito kidnap Fischer and travel in a cab. Now Arthur initiates the dream. Enter 2nd level. All go to the hotel room and so on..
In Arthur's case, the fall is not the kick but splash of water is the kick. If he was the first to initiate the dream, a fall itself would've served as a kick. But here he is the 2nd.
There's plenty of answers/discussions in the imdb forums. One needs patience to seep through the spam and find the right posts. I don't hve it.
In the theater I watched there was hardly any response for the climax. I was impressed though. I still can not forget multiple calls of WTF after the credits started rolling in NCFOM.
Digression(!): Revisited Following yesterday. Adhula allAmE puriyudhu without any help. And it also has some stupid visual cues like the last shot in which *SPOILER* Cobb disappears into the crowd :lol: Nevertheless an excellent film, very well written.
I thought so too. But was wondering if this was mentioned somewhere (given that pretty much everything was mentioned :-)) and I managed to miss it.Quote:
That's why we see 'tumbling' effect first in Level 2 when the van hits the bridge in Level 1. But not a 'kick'. The 'kick' needs a bit more magnitude, one presumes.
No. The 'reality' is the flight. Only a kick there will wake up Fischer.Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaybaskar
In Level 1 the dream is initiated by Arthur. So a 'kick' there should wake him up and pull him back from Level 2 (the hotel).
But I guess the breaking of the bridge is not strong enough and that is they are woken up only when they hit the water. I was just wondering if I managed to miss some dialogue.
:lol: Cracks me up each time I hear that. I remain annoyed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd
Some parts Nolan overexplains and makes convenient conversation (people talking too much or surface-y in first meetings), that didn't sit well with me. But overall highly excusable.
Does the music has anything to do with Arthur's waking up? I forgot that one...
Yeah. The multiple levels and the sedatives were explained 2-3 times at least. So andha parts ellaam fairly well understood but first 15 mins dhaan suththamaa puriyalai.. Where did the dream start, the purpose of it, the twist (audition) etc.. Should watch again.Quote:
Originally Posted by P_R
I meant in the context of our discussions about 'intention'. Was wondering if 'being Nolan' would be a 'compliment' you'd inclined to think as the ultimate. :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by kid-glove
I just read Satish Naidu's review, where he kinda says, the film stops short of being great because it leaves very little room for the individual to bring his own imagination to the table to enrich his viewing experience.
Many of the sentences in the review struck me as very true and seemed to inform me better about why I like what I like.
Quote:
the ending frame has every member of every audience in every part of the world unite, having the exact same thought, and wanting the exact same outcome, and wanting it most desperately. That, dear reader, is audience manipulation of the highest kind, the evidence that we are witnessing a craftsman, an illusionist the likes of which cinema has probably never witnessed.
....
....
What bothers me is what have I felt and experienced that my neighbor didn’t. And if the answer to that is nothing, which it increasingly seems is the case, then does that make Inception a lesser film? Or a greater one? I ask you.
P_R,
Regarding the mechanics of the kick - It must be delivered in the level above the dream level. For example - One doesn't wake up from a dream when dunked water is splashed on one in the dream. One wakes up when water wakes up when water is splashed on one in reality. In fact the very first test that Saito sets up uses the very same example. Cobb is dunked in a tub of water in the riotous city (Lukas Haas's first level dream) and he wakes up from the second level which is Saito's oriental Geisha house dream.
So the inverse should imply that the first kick should happen in the hotel and should've been initiated by Arthur. But then that doesn't explain how the time suddenly condensed from a week to 60 minutes. So I am still slightly confused.
Ajay,
Consider the music as a counter. An end of a movement indicates an end of a loop in each dream. Now what would be interesting (and I cant remember this coz I was sufficiently drunk while watching the film) is to see if in the background score shifts time at each level of the dream.
Where I am hitting a wall is how Fischer is made to believe something through Eames' dream level? What were the mazes that Ariadne constructed? I guess I will need to watch again. Hopefully rum-less this time.
I agree P_R. I did reveal my disappointments to Sid_316 (in private) about the ending. :)
Even If I need to watch the film again, this film makes one to debate what they saw. Not many big budget Hollywood film elicits such a response out of its audience. That I'm not sure I should post long posts on this film. I wrote one earlier but withdrew from posting. It's that long. :oops:
Compiled my thoughts here..
Addendum:
Multiple interpretations of the ending is less rewarding..As I said, the fake-ending is more 'spiritual' than we might think. It's the only moment of unison for all the audience, that's of delight. The slow-mo and slow, upbeat music is very 'transient'. Not a lot of words are spoken here. Saito begins the plan for Inception with a rhetorical question, Are you ready to take a leap of faith..Older Saito, in Limbo, repeats this question too. And both is sandwiched in the film by Mal uttering a similar rhetoric before committing suicide (all this according to Cobb), to take the leap of faith in uniting with her, in death...So perhaps the quest here is 'spiritual', how ironically, the whole film is of "Corporate" espionage. Where individuality has no face value.. Yet this film has existential themes of redemption and spirituality.