correct, I have often wondered about this?, can some one pls enlighten me as to why this was regarded as Dharma, ie Duriyodhana being King??Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Balaji
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correct, I have often wondered about this?, can some one pls enlighten me as to why this was regarded as Dharma, ie Duriyodhana being King??Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Balaji
Quote:
Karna's and Bhishma's characters have been highly sophisticated, esp on the Dharma vs Adharma issues, what is adharma from one sides's view (Pandavas view), during the incident when Draupadai was molseted in the court, was completley oppsite to Bhishma's view, ie his dharma was to be loyal to Kauravas though his side was on the evil side,!
Similarly though Karna knew he was the eldest of Pandavas, he fought against them, and vowed to Kill Partha, he knew if partha was killed, kauravas would have won the war, so he was doing his dharma (loyality) to his beloved friend Duryodhana, but on the other hand what he was doing was adharma, from pandavas /Kunti's point of view!
Raghu,
My view point is :
Karna who previously was identified as a Charioteer’s son was made a king instantly by Duryodhana when he challenged Arjuna at the time when the Pandavas and Gauravas were displaying their respective skills.
So, Karna had an obligation , a sort of quid pro quo relationship with Duryodhana to fulfill and he was forced to support him for all Duryodhana’s misdeeds. This only is the main reason for Karna to be with Duryodhana to fight against Pandavas. This in no way can be defined as a Dharma… If someone can still counter on this.. probably this can be coded as MithruDharma..
There is no incident of Karna coming across Duryodhana before this episode and hence there was a need for Duryodhana to identify someone to challenge Arjuna and he found someone in the form of Karna… What happened subsequently was a friendship built over a period of time. Certain events like when Duryo’s wife and Karna were playing dice…. Etc were all melodramas.. to highlight the level of friendship .
Bhishma is a revered soul.. A great character… In his prime of youth, he sacrificed everything for the sake of his father and he will take a pledge that he will stand by the king of Hastinapur.. This was the prime reason for him to fight for Kauravas finally .
The only negative aspect was… when Draupadi was illtreated in the arena.. he should have stopped that incident … There is no justification for him to remain quiet… whatever may be his commitment to the throne..
The same will be applicable for Acharya Drona as well.
Both Bhishma and Drona had to face their end for being quiet during this Draupadhi episode . But for this incident Bhisma was the most perfect character in this Great Epic. A fitting response from SriKrishna will come in the form of Vishnu Sahasranamam being told through Bhishma after the war.. That reflected SriKrishna’s respect and regard for Bhishma.
Dharma can be essentially classified into individual dharma (ID) and Fundamental Dharma (FD).
Karna, Bhishma etc adhered to Indiv. dharma. Now, ID is ok as long as it does not conflict with FD. FD is the more universal dharma. For instance, during the humiliation of Draupadi, it is FD to prevent it from happening. And in the sastras proclaim that when ID conflicts with FD, it is FD that has to be followed, and not ID.
If ID is to be held supreme, then each person will start violating the social and legal norms in the excuse that it is his ID. A man might become a burglar on the pretext that it is his ID to protect and provide for his family.
I hope I have been able to bring out the difference clearly. It is the mark of the wise and the discriminating to be able to understand which Dharma is more applicable in a given scenario. That is why Vibheeshana chose the right path, while Kumbhakarna erred.
Similarly, Bhishma, Drona etc made the mistake of adhering to ID, and failed when it came to FD.
Mr. Badri,
Your analysis of ID and FD is nice. I think this will be applicable to even Acharya Drona as well . Drona considered his ID higher than FD and his loyalty to Dirudhirashtra and for not having reacted when Draupadhi was illtreated paved way for his end. Eventhough the means adopted to kill him were not correct, he had to die for taking ID.
Badri AnNe
So If ID and FD comes in to conflict, then chosinf FD over will be dharma, while chosing ID over FD will be adharma, this is indeed a 'Dharma Sankata' situation.
If there is such a thing as ID and FD as you have mentioned, then Karna, Bhishma, Drona and Arjuna are all adharma vaathis, right?
Raghu,
Karna, Bhisma and Drona.... are all cannot be classified under Adharmavadhees... Unfortunately, they had to stand by Duryodhana who was an Adharmavadhee
Why did you add Arjuna to this list ??
Balaji AnNeQuote:
Originally Posted by S.Balaji
Any one who supports adharmam are adharmavadhees in terms of Fundamental Adharmavadhees, though they may be Individual Dharmavadhees, Karna, Bhisma and Drona fall into this category!
1) Killing Karna when he is unarmedQuote:
Originally Posted by S.Balaji
2) Killing Karna's son from behind
3) Using Sikandi as a shield to kill Bhishma
this all shows the adharma's inflicted by Arjuna, and also shows his Cowardness, esp towards Karna!!!
Raghu Ji, :D
I have a question.
Arjuna wasn't supporting adharmavadhees, he was fighting them, but used some adharma ways while doing it. "beat them with their own tool" kind of thing.
Isn't all that justified since Arjuna was fighting for Dharma even though he did some things that are considered as Adharma along the way?
Regards. 8)
Dear Raghu,
Pointing out at Arjuna being adharmavaadhee as he killed the mighty 3 in an adharma way... there are 2 more instances where Arjuna was adopting adharma to eliminate the enemy :
1. Poorisiravas... He was fighting with Satyaki and was about to kill him ... when under the directions of Krishna, Arjuna will shoot an arrow which will cut Poorisiravas's right hand...
It was not as per Yudha Dharma as Poori was fighting with another guy and not with Arjuna. Poor Arjuna had to do it as per the wishes of Srikrishna...
2. Jayathratha
3. Bagadhathan
I will give more details on this shortly
Jayathratha the earlier day was instrumental in blocking the path of other 4 pandavas as Drona created Chakravyugh and only Abhimanyu knew how to pierce but was not taught on how to come out of it. WHile he went in successfully, the breach was stalled by Jayathratha and he was unbeatable that day while all the 4 pandavas tried their best to enter.
Poor ABimanyu got killed by the entire group.
Arjuna got wild and he took an oath that if he does not kill Jayathradha the next day before sunset, he will commit suicide.
The war next day went almost up to the sunset as Jayathradha was a valiant warrior.. and he was also protected by the entire Kaurava force.
At one stage Krishna will do a maya act and will hide the Sun God for few moments.... Everybody will think that the sun has set and will start celebrating the moment including Jayathratha...
Arjuna , at this moment will send an arrow which will cut Jayathradha's head and will carry all the way to his Father's lap...
( there is another big story of Jayathradha )
Ultimately, Arjuna could not have killed Jayathradha but for Krishna's guile and magic.