Mumbai Ramki,
Latea vandhalum latesta vandhinga. Somehow I had an inkling that you would love this album. As I said earlier, anyone who had loved 'Shambu' would love this album as well.
Mumbai Ramki,
Latea vandhalum latesta vandhinga. Somehow I had an inkling that you would love this album. As I said earlier, anyone who had loved 'Shambu' would love this album as well.
I dont want to contest irir's point. But here are my observations on this subject. For IR who has grown up with folk and tribal music and has used them effectively to enthral an audience of 50million people for more than 30 years ..phrases like those mentioned do not have a negative connotation. Actually, I feel it is great he does not have this notion. Otherwise, it will be alienating a big section of our population which still has not tasted the fruits of globalization and is toiling in the hard sun, making a living farming dependent on seasonal rain (vaanam paartha boomi) and/or working in factories. These people have not attuned themselves to the latest hip-hop beats or R&B and are still happy with tha na na type of singing (mind you carnatic music was sung in our land using tha na before sa re ga ma pa da ni came in) and our rhythm patterns.
That said, I do want to see IR known internationally and hope many of IRIR's efforts bear fruit. I think if he works with people like Balki we will have song which are more tuned to western sensibilities (even in PAA mudi mudi is the pick in this aspect).
Kiru,
>>Actually, I feel it is great he does not have this notion
A very sensible response from you.
I guess we all suffer from (sometime unintentional) elitist approach.
Gokul
I agree with Kiru, IR's songs reflect the culture and also the situation in the movie. A song like Rakamma which has the amazing wcm pieces in introduction as well as in interludes is still deeply rooted to our cluture in its soul and the jaangu phrase brings that out. It reflects the slum dwellers in the movie or the Basthi folks(as they say in Hyderabad slang) singing and dancing to express their joy and such phrases suit them perfectly. So when presenting to people abroad we should explain that these sounds reflect the people and their culture and their way of expressing the joy. IR does not compose keeping in mind the Americans sensitvity or tastes. They should be made to understand( i know its difficult) and appreciate how IR fuses these two elements and creates songs/ music which is intricate on one hand as well as reflects the culture and region it represents. Infact i can boldy say IR is probably the one composer in India who even while presenting western concepts and Rythms in his songs/music still brings out the culture and mood of the people/region/language.
Infact that is the main reason ARR succeded so quickly in the North since his tunes/music are more generic in nature with no strong cultural influences of a region or a language. I am quoting ARR as an example only and not saying his music is bad or anything. so please do not create an issue out of this.
My take on jAngu chakku :
I think IR has jinjanakku jinakku in his blood and would love to use in every other song if given a free hand :-)
That we don't get it in as many songs is perhaps because of the insistence of the project manager :-) And he complies without any fuss - Mahendran & BM had completely polished / shiny / sophisticated scores way back in 70's itself.
I think he does based on demands - that 'en iniya pon nilAvE' is still enjoyable to current hi-fi crowds is a simple ejjAmple (cleverly used in a horrible movie like VA to force even an irritated viewer like me enjoy a few scenes). 'paruvakkAlangaLin kanavu' - if available in good recording quality will instantly attract anyone in the west IMO.
Talking about west (i.e. U.S.), I don't think they care about jingu chakkA (there're enough weird sounds in any of their average songs). It's probably elite Indians who feel irritated :-) Like I wrote earlier in another thread, a totally sober audience, comprising of people with absolutely no ancestry from India - many musically trained - thoroughly enjoyed 'iLanjOlai pooththadhA' to my utter surprise!
A Detroitter who comes to gym mostly at my times taught me a few tricks and we ended up discussing many things including meesic. After ARR won Oscar, there was a nice talk about him and I casually mentioned about my specific preference of IR under whom ARR worked for a while.
This man immediately said, yes I've heard / read about him (possibly from Indian co-workers at some point of time) and asked me for some samples. Have given him HTNI last week, telling that #10 is my fav (do anything) and also a brief intro about how it has elements of WCM & ICM seamlessly integrated for an organic fusion. I'll get his feedback in a week or so (BTW, he's an instrumental lover)
>> Have given him HTNI last week, telling that #10 is my fav (do anything) and also a brief intro about how it has elements of WCM & ICM seamlessly integrated for an organic fusion.
I did the same thing in '97 to a drummer who I worked with in Denver,CO. Guy came back and said that the recording wasn't up to par, even though he said he enjoyed the album.
Gokul.
kiru - this is getting nowhere! do you mean to say that the toiling-in-the-sun crowd cannot appreciate a melody without 'dang dings' and 'cham cham chamakku chams' ?? didnt the same crowd love/enjoy a 'tharai mel pirakka vaithhaan' from KV Mahadevan or a "thirudaadhey paappa thirudaadhey". or a "budhhan gandhi yesu pirandhadhu bhoomiyil yedharkaaga ?" kind of songs which did not have such nonsense ??Quote:
Originally Posted by kiru
isnt such a claim doing injustice to their appreciative ears and actually sound condescending/patronising ? salilda did not resort to such stuff in his evergreen 'madhumathi' which had lots of tribal/folk based songs !
IMO, the problem lies elsewhere - (1) IR doing tons of movies at a time, and often perhaps not having time for a complete song, and hence such 'phrases' probably came in haste - best example, the obnoxious 'pee peee pibbeeepee pee pee' chorus in the second interlude of the delightful 'vaa vaa manjal malare' from rajathi raaja! as i said, these things at the peak of his career cud be excused (though i dont see why coz, as a professional, he shd have given equal importance to each and every film he was doing, and gotten ridden of such phrases replacing them with some other stuff) - so that possibly explains the state in the 1980s; (2) but now, its an inexplicable sense of 'this is enough for you' to a 'yes boss, yes boss' nodding filmmaker - wud he have the guts to come up with such stuff with someone like kamal ? the 'bey bey peppey' wail in 'kombula poova sutthi' was very brief and strongly context-based and hence kamal probably allowed it
there is only a certain limit beyond which one cant explain the 'context-based' choice of crap IR often employs in his music even after 880 films! am glad that he didnt mess PAA with such stuff coz of the canvas and the wider reach he must have envisaged
irir123 I think you are biased a little by having to show those songs to foreign listeners, and being embarrassed by those sounds. They are annoying from that point of view, but as a native listener they are all fun! I don't think IR ever thought of them from the former point of view or cares about it. Only we worry about those things. but imho they are all characteristics of his "unbridled genius".Quote:
Originally Posted by irir123
IRIR,
nice thoughts.. But
While i agree with you reg IR not caring about certain things, and maybe in some cases such Chorus can be eliminated or not appropriate.. But in general I strongly disagree the view point regarding Chorus.. especially the example you pointed.. in the Rajathi Raaj song.. The lyrics allude to the marriage and IR very appropriately brings in the Nadhaswaram.. now this can be done in vocal or instruments and he has chosen btoh equally well in various songs.. In this song it happens to be Vocal chorus.. how else can u sound a Nadaswaram other than Pee pee.. Not Dum Dum or Jaanku jakka..Right !!
I personally love a lot of the Chorus humming in his songs and sometimes these meaningless dabble too.. Like Kiru said, What the hell does Shakalakka mean.. or for that matter ".. u wannna " or some rap crap in the middle of a tamil song that Harris and other neo MDs throw in..???
Rajaathi Raaja was not done to please any Western audience in the first place.. It was done to please Rajini movie goers.. That's all.. it is a bonus that song was liked by you and some foriegners atleast in part..
Knowing you well, I guess i can see your frustration that IR with all the "Sarakku" has not achieved the global recognition and most importantly that too partly due to his own "eccentricities"..
But shooting down all Chorus words that do not have a meaning is not fair i guess. and your bias towards Kamal is so obvious here that you say Kamal constrains IR - As far as i Know IR, he does not care about IR or Balki or even Rajini or Amitabh .. ( had it been any other MD, they would have rushed to Mumbai on AB's invitation ).. This is IR's strength and weakness in my HO.
I am sure Kamal songs had their share of such chorus as well.
Cheers
MSK
MSK - in sathya, "raappaa thagu thigu" in 'pottaa padiyudhu" and "da da datta dattada dattada dattaa" in "nagaru nagaru" tracks were Kamal-centric choral nonsense contribution from IR!
i say kamal coz in a DD interview in the mid-1990s, IR had mentioned kamal as the most difficult to work with saying kamal is a taskmaster! IR acknowledges that - since both have an excellent work chemistry, they share a rapport level where both dont sacrifice from an aesthetics point of view and do justice to each others work - hence I mentioned kamal I have not heard IR mentioning anyone else in the same way - you can check back on his interviews!