Re: NAN MARAI OF Sangam Literature and Truths
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsath
Quote:
Originally Posted by devapriya
[tscii]Dear Friends,
Let us Congratualate Dsath for bringing the Truths against the Fradulants of FSG-Bismala.
My post was not to discredit FSG, Sivamala (or anyone else) but a response to the on going discussion about surname linked to caste names and the caste related evils that exist even today.
Please go ahead with your discussions regarding the topic as i feel there is a lot to learn from all of your posts.
:)
Dear dsath,
As you said upper castes hammerising the dalits happens always. But in tamilland comparatively less than other states of India. Ambedkar statue demolition was opposed by dalits forcefully. This shows dalits grew in strength.
Regarding surnames - Kallar,Maravar,Akampadiar, Akampadi Mudali & vanniar have 'Thevar' as surnames. This shows surnames never induce hatred but castes only induces quarrels.
Moopanar is surname of Udayar caste. And it also surname of Pallar caste which is considered to be scheduled caste.
Here I want to specify that surnames is nothing to do with the castes.
f.s.gandhi
NAN MARAI IN SANGAM LITERATURE ARE VEDAS.
Dear Friends,
Let us Congradulate Dsath for giving links.
fsg's bluff and mala's bluff in no way explains the killing of Dalit Panchayat Presidents and Not allowing Panchayat elections for 15 years by false prestige by Upper Caste Non-Brahmin Castes.
Congrads Devapria,and Pavitra.
Excellent postings.
Not one reply in any thread b fsg mala has any worthy answer, but shear Nonsense bluffs.
An Historical analysis of What Nachinarkiniyar had been done by Pavanar and he donfirmed that it is wrong. KA.SU.PILLAI BLUFFS ARE utter meaningless.
uppuma
NAN MARAI IN SANGAM LITERATURE ARE VEDAS.
Dear Friends,
Let us Congradulate Dsath for giving links.
fsg's bluff and mala's bluff in no way explains the killing of Dalit Panchayat Presidents and Not allowing Panchayat elections for 15 years by false prestige by Upper Caste Non-Brahmin Castes.
Congrads Devapria,and Pavitra.
Excellent postings.
Not one reply in any thread b fsg mala has any worthy answer, but shear Nonsense bluffs.
An Historical analysis of What Nachinarkiniyar had been done by Pavanar and he donfirmed that it is wrong. KA.SU.PILLAI BLUFFS ARE utter meaningless.
uppuma
NAN MARAI IN SANGAM LITERATURE ARE VEDAS.
Dear Friends,
Let us Congradulate Dsath for giving links.
fsg's bluff and mala's bluff in no way explains the killing of Dalit Panchayat Presidents and Not allowing Panchayat elections for 15 years by false prestige by Upper Caste Non-Brahmin Castes.
Congrads Devapria,and Pavitra.
Excellent postings.
Not one reply in any thread b fsg mala has any worthy answer, but shear Nonsense bluffs.
An Historical analysis of What Nachinarkiniyar had been done by Pavanar and he donfirmed that it is wrong. KA.SU.PILLAI BLUFFS ARE utter meaningless.
uppuma
NAN MARAI IN SANGAM LITERATURE ARE VEDAS.
Dear Friends,
Let us Congradulate Dsath for giving links.
fsg's bluff and mala's bluff in no way explains the killing of Dalit Panchayat Presidents and Not allowing Panchayat elections for 15 years by false prestige by Upper Caste Non-Brahmin Castes.
Congrads Devapria,and Pavitra.
Excellent postings.
Not one reply in any thread b fsg mala has any worthy answer, but shear Nonsense bluffs.
An Historical analysis of What Nachinarkiniyar had been done by Pavanar and he donfirmed that it is wrong. KA.SU.PILLAI BLUFFS ARE utter meaningless.
uppuma
NanMarai are Vedas in Sangam Literature
Dear Friends,
Dear Friends,
We have Entire Sangam Literature to till date Tamil Lit. referring Vedas as Nanmari, however we have few friends with Closed-brain to accept the Truths, but let us take this to analyse more.
Bismila says-//The "Arya Vedas" (vedas by the knowledgeables) were unwritten and still floating around in oral form after KuRaL had been composed!
THIRUVALLUVA MALAI, song by Velliveethiar,
"Cheyyamozhikum Thiruvalluvar Mozhintha
Poiya Mozhikum ...................................". Song 23, Thiruvalluva Malai. Sangam Lit refers to the floating body of mantras (later known as Vedas) as "ezuthaak kaRpu". The Vedas clearly were reduced to writing about 4 centuries after KuRaL. mainly because the mantras were more sound-based and writing could not convey the rhythm and tone and pronunciation - on which grounds the pujaris were opposing the reduction to writing. So the term Naan Marai in Tol cannot by any stretch of imagination refer to the unwritten, uncollected mantras which later became "vedas". No amount of bluffing by any scholar can convince.//
We have plenty of Brahmi Tamil Inscriptions from say 2nd Cent. BCE, But early one uses extensive Prakrit words and Tamilised Prakrit words, with Many Tamil Grammatical Errors. We can simply say Classical SenTamil we see in Sangam is totally absent in Brahmi or that matter even much later Tamil Inscriptions. Can we say that a Language after being spoken for many Centuries, only then Poetical level reached and that means Sangam Lit.(200CE-200BCE), Tholkappiyam(100-200CE) AND Kural-Silapathikaram & Manimekhalai (250-300CE) for all of which we have Manuscripts only from 17th Century were written just little earlier than the Manuscripts.
Brahmi is the mother of all Indian Libis and its vowel Pattern follows that of Sanskrit and Tamil writing method and pronunciation of Vowels followed Sanskrit Pattern till early 19th Century-All clearly proving that Brahmi was developed by Sanskrit’s.
Tamil Sangam Lit. for that reason any old Literary words must be read with Historical Linguistics, a small example here; see how Two words கழகம் & நாற்றம். Both the words got exactly Opposite meaning over time,One Positive and One Negative.
கவறுங் கழகமுங் கயுந் தருக்கி
இவறியார் இல்லாகி யார்- குறள் 935
ஓதுசாலையும் சூதாடு கழகமும் பெருங்கதை II:7-132- Here both the word கழகம் refers place of Wrong activities as Gambling and Drinking etc.,
By KambaRamayan time 10th Cen. கழகம்
கந்தனை யனையவர் கலைபயில் கழகம் - கம்ப இரா:நாட்டுப் -48 became Positive referred for Reading College.
The word நாற்றம் which in Sangam Period was used in Highly Positive Smell, such as to refer Devas etc., became by Kamba Ramayan time as the word for Bad small(துர்நாற்றம்)
நாற்றங் கேட்டாலும் தின்ன நயப்பதோர்
கூற்றுண்டொ சொலாய் கூற்றுறழ் வேலினாய் கம்ப இரா:தாடகை-64
Any reader who reads without knowing this would miss the original Meaning.
Proper Linguist cannot work on himself by assumed roots, unless he follows historic usage pattern, We see quiet a few Tholkappiyam’s Grammer rules were Slipped in Sangam Literature, and later. This is in spite of the fact that Tholkappiyar wrote Tholkappiyam later than most of the Sangam Literature. These were amended in later Grammar Books.
தமிழ் பிராமிக் கல்வெட்டுகளில் கிடைத்த செய்திகளையும், பண்டைத் தமிழ் இலக்கண நூலான தொல்காப்பியச் செய்திகளையும் ஒப்பிட்டு நோக்குதல் சரியானதே. இவ்வகை ஒப்பாய்வினைப் பல ஆசிரியர்கள் நடத்தி சிறந்த பிரச்னைகளைப் பற்றி விளக்கம் அளித்துள்ளபடியால் மீண்டும் இப்பிரச்னைகயை இங்கே ஆராய்வது தேவையற்றது. இக்கல்வெட்டுகளில், தொன்மைவையானவை, தொல்காப்பியத்திற்கு முற்பட்டவையாவும், பிற்பட்ட கல்வெட்டுகள் தொல்காப்பியத்தின் காலத்தோடு, பொருத்துவது என்றும் நிர்ணயம் செய்ய உதவும். இவ்வகையில் இவை எழுத்து வடிவ, மொழி வளார்ச்சியில் நம்பத்தக்க முக்கியபடிநிலைகளை அமைக்க உதவும். கட்டுரை-தமிழ் பிராமி கல்வெட்டுகள் - ஒரு வரலாற்று மதிப்பீடு; பக்க-167 தொல்லியல் ஆய்வுகள், Prof.கே.வி.ராமன் H.O.D.-Archeaological Dept. Chennai University. அணிந்துரை-Prof.கே.கே.பிள்ளைThis Article was Originally Published in Journal of Epigraphical Studies-Vol-I, as Article-Brahmi Inscriptions of Tamilnadu- A Historical Assessment.
தொல்காப்பியம்:- தொல்காப்பியர் இயற்றிய நூல் தொல்காப்பியம் எனப் பெயர் பெறும். எந்நூலுக்கும் இல்லாத தொன்மையும் சிறப்பும் பெற்றது இந்நூல். இது கடைச் சங்க நூல்களுக்குப் பிந்தியது எனக் கூறலாம் பக்க-92 கட்டுரை- சங்க கால இலக்கியங்கள், நூல் தமிழ்நாட்டு சமுதாய பண்பாட்டு வரலாறு. Prof. Dr.A.சுவாமிநாதன்.
Vedas were compiled much before drying of the Great River Saraswathi drying up, Drying of River took place in BCE 2100, and drying started by BCE 2300. Why would the Vedics refer to a river that had already dried up, if indeed they came to India in 1500 BCE, as is alleged by Max Mueller, long after the Sarasvati had dried up.Edwin Bryant pointed out that in Veda's Saraswati is mentioned as going from Mountains to Sea where as Afganistan’ Haravati does not. It seems like that Veda's also give other geographical descripiton of Saraswati which preclued Haravati as being Saraswati.The Route of the River Saraswathi has been mapped by Satellite pictures and also the Ground research over the route, the following link would provide much details to Friends.
http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/nsindex.htm - A site devoted to the Sarasvati/Sindhu Civilization. There is an on-line book at this site by a Dr.Kalyanaraman and several other goodies.
http://www.discoveringarchaeology.co...re1-indus.html This is a site with an article written for the layman. Kenoyer (one of the authors was born and brought up in India). Gives a layman's overview of the artifacts found at Harappa.
http://link.lanic.utexas.edu/asnic/s...ivization.html A short monograph on the Sarasvati/Sindhu civilization.
As Tholkappiyam was written after most of Sangam Lit., the Sanskrit Lit.’s Grammer Book Panini’s Ashtathyaayi, is written in 5TH Century BCE.(Dating as per Wikipedia- traditionally 520–460 BC, but estimates range from the 7th to 4th centuries BC). Panini in his effort contained the Grammer of Valmiki Ramayan dated to 1000BCE, and Mahabharat dated to 1000-600BCE, in his Grammer, however Panini could not contain the Vedas written in a Spoken way of libi as said by ThaniTamil Scholar Panmozipulavar-Appadurai.(His datings belong to Past superstitions of Aryan Invasions and absurd dates, I give them to maintain verbatim).
வேதமொழி உண்மையில் கி.மு.1500-800 வரை இந்திய ஆரியர் பஞ்ஞாபில் வாழ்ந்த காலத்தில் பேசி வந்த மொழியாகும். அவர்கள் கிழக்கே குருபாஞ்சால நாட்டிற்குப் பரவுவதற்குள் (கி.மு800-200) நூல்வழக்கு மொழியிலிருந்து பேச்சு மொழி நெடுந்தூரம் விலகிற்று. நூல்வழக்கு மொழி வேதமொழி என்றும், பேச்சுவழக்கு மொழி பாஷா என்றும் வழங்கின. மொழியறிஞரால் இது, பிற்கால வேதமொழி எனப்படும் உபநிடதங்கள் இதிகாச புராணங்கள் இதிலேயே இயற்றப்பட்டன. இவற்றில் வேதமொழிக்குப் பாஸ்கராலும் பிற்கால வேதமொழிக்குப் (பாஷா) பாணினியாலும் இலக்கணம் வகுக்கப்பட்டது.
பாணினியின் இலக்கணம் வேதமொழியினடிப்படையில் அமைந்ததனாலும்,.. .. பக்க-150, கட்டுரை- வடமொழி இலக்கியம், நூல்-உலக இலக்கியம்.
Every World Language, (including Tamil) of the world used Mainly Poetry form only, because they can be passed on to Generations by mouth; even though writing came in. This continued till Printing came. Tamil’ Dictionaries’ earlier form Nikandu’s are also in Poetic form only. Storing in Ola or any other form is Voluminous and maintaining for Generations is much more difficult. Hence Poetical Oral Trasnmission was trusted by Scholars of every Part of the World, including Tamil.
Vedas are not in general Sanskrit. Even a Scholar with good knowledge with Panini, could easily go wrong with Vedas, hence Vedas are not allowed to be written for long. Vedas have been discussed by Buddha as “Chandas”- (meaning Chantings and its Tamilised form சந்தங்கள்) and also Jain’s discussions of Pre Common Era. Vedas and Panini’ have been discussed by Greek Travelers books. Vedas are giving quiet a lot of information on development of Human Civilisation and studied and researched all over the world.
We have a quiet a lot of Sanskrit Manuscripts from 50-100BCE, and one or two even goes to first century BCE, on the Contrary Tamil Manuscripts are only from 17th Cen., CE. We do have Spoken Tamil Stone Inscriptions from 200BCE, In Brahmi-originally developed Libi for Sanskrit, where as Sanskrit Inscription starts from Girnar’ of 2nd Cen. CE. We do not have one Stone Inscription of Tamil using Poetical Tamil.
Now our dear friend, Mala refers TiruvalluvaMalai. Now let us see few more of TiruvalluvaMalai.
ஏதம்இல் வள்ளுவர் இன்குறள் வெண்பவினால்
ஓதிய ஒண்பொருள் எல்லாம்- உரைத்ததனால்
தாதுஅவிழ் தார்மாற! தாமே? தமைப்பயந்த
வேதமே மேதக் கன? -32 பெரும்சித்திரனார்
Kural is said as the Flowers in a Garland.
அறம்முப்பத் தெட்டுப், பொருள்எழுபது. இன்பத்
திறமெருபத்து ஐந்தால், தெளிய-முறைமையால்
வேதவிழுப் பொருளை வெண்குறளால் வள்ளுவனார்
ஓத வழுக்கற்றது உலகு. – 37, மதுரை பெருமருதனார்.
Valluvar took Vedas and developed it as Kural in a lighter manner.
வேதப் பொருளை விரகால் விரித்து, உலகோர்
ஓதத், தமிழால் உரைசெய்தார்; - ஆதலால்,
உள்ளுநர் உள்ளும் பொருலெல்லாம் உண்டுஎன்ப
வள்ளுவர் வாய்மொழி மாட்டு. செயலூர்க் கொடும் செங்கண்ணனார்.
Valluvar took Vedas, and translated to Tamil as Kural.
ஓதற்கு எளிதாய், உணர்தற்கு அரிதுஆகி,
வேதப்பொருளாய், மிகவிளங்கித், தீதுஅற்றோர்
உள்ளுதொறும் உள்ளுதொறும் உள்ளமுருக்குமே
வள்ளுவர் வாய்மொழி மாண்பு. 24,மாங்குடி மருதனார்.
ஆற்றல் அழியுமென்று அந்தணர்கள் நான்மறையைப்
போற்றி உரைத்து,ஏட்டின் புறத்துஎழுதார்- ஏட்டுஎழுதி
வல்லுநரும், வல்லாரும், வள்ளுவனார் முப்பாலைச்
சொல்லிடினும், ஆற்றல்சோர்வு இன்று. கோதமனார்
ஆரியமும் செந்தமிழும் ஆராய்ந்து, இதனினிது
சீரியது இன்றுஒன்றைச் செப்பரிதுஆல்- ஆரியம்,
வேதம் உடைத்துத், தமிழ்,திரு வள்ளுவனார்
ஓது குறட்பா உடைத்து. -43, வண்ணக்கம் சாத்தானார்.
Sanskrit and Tamil are equally great, none can be said as great; Sanskrit has Vedas and Tamil has Valluvar’ Kural.
We call them ThiruKural, Author as ThiruValluvar etc., only with the help of ThiruValluvaMalai, before which it was hardly recognized and rarely referred as muppaal. Mala raised many interesting points, but meaningless. It is again a case of making ssumptions. The problems are that the debate is really about these assumptions. I will try to answer as many of these points (one at a time) as time permits.
Again you make the assumption that Tamil came first chronologically. Do you have a basis for saying that? This is not a rhetorical question
இýÀÓõ ¦À¡ÕÙõ «ÈÛõ ±ýÈ¡íÌ
«ý¦À¡Î Ò½÷ó¾ ³ó¾¢¨½ ÁÕí¸¢ý
¸¡Áì Üð¼õ ¸¡Ïõ ¸¡¨Ä
Á¨È§Â¡÷ §¾±òÐ ÁýÈø ±ð¼Ûû
Ð¨È «¨Á ¿ø ¡úò Ш½¨Á§Â¡÷ இÂø§À- ¸ÇÅ¢Âø-1 and this is later confirmed by இறையனார் அகப்பொருளுரை which directly says Vedic Gandarvas- instead of Long Tholkappiyar; translation Ð¨È «¨Á ¿ø ¡úò Ш½¨Á§Â¡÷
அன்பின் ஐந்திணைக் களவென்பது படுவது
அந்தணர் அருமறை மன்றல் எட்டனுள்
கந்தர்வ வழக்கம் எனமனார் புலவர்- இறையனார் அகப்பொருளுரை
Now as per Vedic Tradition- Marriages are classified as
1. À¢ÃõÁ Ó¨È 2. ¨¾Å 3. ÷„ 4. À¢Ã¡ƒ¡ÀòÂõ 5 …¥Ã, 6.¸ó¾÷Å 7.ᇅ
ÁüÚõ 8. ¨Àº¡º Ó¨È.
//bis_mala wrote in the past: "Á¨È" ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø, ¦¾¡ø¸¡ôÀ¢Â áüÀ¡Å¢§Ä§Â þ¨º áø¸¨ÇÔõ ÌÈ¢ì¸ ÅÆí¸ôÀðÎûÇÐ ±ýÚ ¿¡ý Óý§À ±ÎòÐ측ðÊÔû§Çý.//
Yes mals is right, Musicians in Vedic Tradition is called Gandarvas(¿ø ¡úò Ш½¨Á§Â¡÷), and hence Music Books are called Gandarva Veda and Tholkappiyar calls them Marai is coorect
F.S.Gandhi vandayarDevoted Hubber Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:16 pm Post subject:
Silapathikaram & Manimekalai are Samanar books. Where do the Vedhic traditions come?
AND the above was agreed by mala, only proves what Friend Pavitra Said
I quote Pavitra- //And response of Bismala looks as Valluvar Said this, for an Uneducated man, to wishing to speak in an educated people forum is like a Girl without any breasts who wants to show her beauty. The show by a Breastless lady would not be attractive and similarly the Man without proper Knowledge to speak. Kallathaan Sol Kaamuruthal mulai irandum IllaathavaL peN kaamuRRARRU.— Kural 402. ¸øÄ¡¾¡ý ¦º¡ü¸¡ ÓÚ¾ø ӨĢÃñÎõ இøÄ¡¾¡û ¦Àñ¸¡Óü ÈüÚ. 402//
From –www.tamilnation.org- Article on SilappathikAram.
SilappathikAram was written by iLangO atikaL (இளங்கோ அடிகள்), a Jain monk. It contains 3 chapters (புகார்க் காண்டம், மதுரைக் காண்டம், வஞ்சிக் காண்டம்) and a total of 5270 lines. Anyone who has read the original text of this epic could not help marvel at its author, iLangO atikaL (இளங்கோ அடிகள்) who was able to maintain the tempo and passions associated with human interactions throughout the work.
The outstanding feature of SilappathikAram is the equanimity of its author, iLangO atikaL towards religion, society and politics. Though he was a Jain monk, iLangO atikaL did not use the epic to spread the principles of Jainism. Whatever religious inputs he may have made blended nicely with the flow of the story. This is quite unlike the twin epic, MaNimEklai (மண்மேகலை) in which its author, SAtthanAr (சாத்தனார்) used the work to teach Buddhist philosophy.
KaNNaki regained her composure to add that only the evil minded be destroyed by the fire but not brahmins, ascetics, cows, chaste women, children, old people and the disabled.
பார்ப்பார் அறவோர் பசுப் பத்தினிப் பெண்டிர்
முத்தோர் குழவி யெனுமிவரை கைவிட்டுத்
தீதிறத்தார் பக்கமே சேர்கென்று காய்த்திய
பொற்றொடி ஏவப் புகையழல் மண்டிற்றே
நற்றோரான் கூடல் நகர்.
(வஞ்சின மாலை 53-57.)
(அழல் மண்டிற்று = தீ பற்றி அழித்தது)
From www.wikipedia Article on SilappathikAram -Silapathikaram is a work which Main characters
· Kovalan - Son of a wealthy merchant in Puhar
· Kannagi - Wife of Kovalan
· Masattuvan - A wealthy grain merchant and the father of Kovalan
· Madhavi - A beautiful courtesan
· Vacavadattai - Madavi's female friend
· Kosigan - Madavi's messenger to Kovalan
· Madalan - A Brahmin visitor to Madurai from Puhar
· Kavunthi Adigal - A woman ascetic
· Neduncheliyan - Pandya king
· Kopperundevi - Pandya Queen
From www.wikipedia Article on Gajabahu I
Gajabahu I (lit. 'Elephant-Arm'), also known as Gajabahuka Gamani (c.114 - 136 CE) was a Sinhalese king of Rajarata in Sri Lanka. He is renowned for his religious benefactions, extensive involvement in south Indian politics, and for possibly introducing the cult of the goddess Pattini to Sri Lanka.
Silapathikaram refers to Gajabahu I coming for festival clearly giving Historical dating of 3rd Century writing, within Two Centuries from Tholkappiyam and almost contermporary of Kural.
º¡Ä¢ ´ÕÁ£ý ¾¨¸Â¡¨Çì §¸¡ÅÄý
Á¡ÓÐ À¡÷ôÀ¡ý Á¨ÈÅÆ¢ ¸¡ðʼò
¾£ÅÄõ ¦ºöÅÐ ¸¡ñÀ¡÷ì¸ñ §¿¡ýÒ±ý¨É.
Å¢¨Ã¢É÷ ÁÄâÉ÷ Å¢ÇíÌ §ÁÉ¢Â÷
¯¨Ã¢É÷ À¡ðÊÉ÷ ´º¢ó¾ §¿¡ì¸¢É÷ - And the Marriage from Sangam, Thol, Silapathikaram days are as same as todays.
Dr. Ambedkar, who was never a Hinduism supporter, wrote:
1.THe Vedas do not know any such race as the Aryan race.
2.There is no evidence in the Vedas of any invasion of India by the Aryan race and its having conquered the Dasas and Dasyus supposed to be the natives of India.
3.There is no evidience to show that the distinction between Aryans, Dasas and Dasyus was a racial distinction.
4. THe Vedas do not support the contention that the Aryas were different in colour from the Dasas and Dayus .....
" If anthropometry is a science which can be depended upon to determine the race of a people ..... then its measurements extablish that the Brahmins and the Untouchables belong to the same race. From this it follows that if the Brahmins are Aryans the Untouchables are also Aryans. If the Brahmins are Dravidians, the Untouchables are also Dravidians....
WRITINGS AND SPEECHES - EDUCATION Dept. Govt. of Mahrashtra vol -7 page 85 and 302-303.
The Casteism is increased due to the Dravidian rule.
The Dravidian Fathers want their Posting and Party Leadership to their Sons. Eg.Karunanidhi, Ramdoss etc., practicsing Varnasram dharma.
To quote Dr. Ambedkar : “The theory of [Aryan] invasion is an invention. It is a perversion of scientific investigation, it is not allowed to evolve out of facts.... It falls to the ground at every point.”[11] All available evidence shows that India’s civilization, whose roots go back even before the Harappan civilization, grew on Indian soil. As the U.S. archaeologist Jim Shaffer puts it :
Current archaeological data do not support the existence of an Indo-Aryan or European invasion into South Asia any time in the pre- or protohistoric periods. Instead, it is possible to document archaeologically a series of cultural changes reflecting indigenous cultural developments from prehistoric to historic periods.[12]
John Marshall remarked in 1931, “[THE HARAPPAN] RELIGION IS SO CHARACTERISTICALLY INDIAN AS HARDLY TO BE DISTINGUISHED FROM STILL LIVING HINDUISM.
There is no name Dravidians at all in Sangam Lit, and we have onlhy one Indian i.e., Vedic.
Devapriya
NanMarai are Vedas in Sangam Literature
Dear Friends,
Dear Friends,
We have Entire Sangam Literature to till date Tamil Lit. referring Vedas as Nanmari, however we have few friends with Closed-brain to accept the Truths, but let us take this to analyse more.
Bismila says-//The "Arya Vedas" (vedas by the knowledgeables) were unwritten and still floating around in oral form after KuRaL had been composed!
THIRUVALLUVA MALAI, song by Velliveethiar,
"Cheyyamozhikum Thiruvalluvar Mozhintha
Poiya Mozhikum ...................................". Song 23, Thiruvalluva Malai. Sangam Lit refers to the floating body of mantras (later known as Vedas) as "ezuthaak kaRpu". The Vedas clearly were reduced to writing about 4 centuries after KuRaL. mainly because the mantras were more sound-based and writing could not convey the rhythm and tone and pronunciation - on which grounds the pujaris were opposing the reduction to writing. So the term Naan Marai in Tol cannot by any stretch of imagination refer to the unwritten, uncollected mantras which later became "vedas". No amount of bluffing by any scholar can convince.//
We have plenty of Brahmi Tamil Inscriptions from say 2nd Cent. BCE, But early one uses extensive Prakrit words and Tamilised Prakrit words, with Many Tamil Grammatical Errors. We can simply say Classical SenTamil we see in Sangam is totally absent in Brahmi or that matter even much later Tamil Inscriptions. Can we say that a Language after being spoken for many Centuries, only then Poetical level reached and that means Sangam Lit.(200CE-200BCE), Tholkappiyam(100-200CE) AND Kural-Silapathikaram & Manimekhalai (250-300CE) for all of which we have Manuscripts only from 17th Century were written just little earlier than the Manuscripts.
Brahmi is the mother of all Indian Libis and its vowel Pattern follows that of Sanskrit and Tamil writing method and pronunciation of Vowels followed Sanskrit Pattern till early 19th Century-All clearly proving that Brahmi was developed by Sanskrit’s.
Tamil Sangam Lit. for that reason any old Literary words must be read with Historical Linguistics, a small example here; see how Two words கழகம் & நாற்றம். Both the words got exactly Opposite meaning over time,One Positive and One Negative.
கவறுங் கழகமுங் கயுந் தருக்கி
இவறியார் இல்லாகி யார்- குறள் 935
ஓதுசாலையும் சூதாடு கழகமும் பெருங்கதை II:7-132- Here both the word கழகம் refers place of Wrong activities as Gambling and Drinking etc.,
By KambaRamayan time 10th Cen. கழகம்
கந்தனை யனையவர் கலைபயில் கழகம் - கம்ப இரா:நாட்டுப் -48 became Positive referred for Reading College.
The word நாற்றம் which in Sangam Period was used in Highly Positive Smell, such as to refer Devas etc., became by Kamba Ramayan time as the word for Bad small(துர்நாற்றம்)
நாற்றங் கேட்டாலும் தின்ன நயப்பதோர்
கூற்றுண்டொ சொலாய் கூற்றுறழ் வேலினாய் கம்ப இரா:தாடகை-64
Any reader who reads without knowing this would miss the original Meaning.
Proper Linguist cannot work on himself by assumed roots, unless he follows historic usage pattern, We see quiet a few Tholkappiyam’s Grammer rules were Slipped in Sangam Literature, and later. This is in spite of the fact that Tholkappiyar wrote Tholkappiyam later than most of the Sangam Literature. These were amended in later Grammar Books.
தமிழ் பிராமிக் கல்வெட்டுகளில் கிடைத்த செய்திகளையும், பண்டைத் தமிழ் இலக்கண நூலான தொல்காப்பியச் செய்திகளையும் ஒப்பிட்டு நோக்குதல் சரியானதே. இவ்வகை ஒப்பாய்வினைப் பல ஆசிரியர்கள் நடத்தி சிறந்த பிரச்னைகளைப் பற்றி விளக்கம் அளித்துள்ளபடியால் மீண்டும் இப்பிரச்னைகயை இங்கே ஆராய்வது தேவையற்றது. இக்கல்வெட்டுகளில், தொன்மைவையானவை, தொல்காப்பியத்திற்கு முற்பட்டவையாவும், பிற்பட்ட கல்வெட்டுகள் தொல்காப்பியத்தின் காலத்தோடு, பொருத்துவது என்றும் நிர்ணயம் செய்ய உதவும். இவ்வகையில் இவை எழுத்து வடிவ, மொழி வளார்ச்சியில் நம்பத்தக்க முக்கியபடிநிலைகளை அமைக்க உதவும். கட்டுரை-தமிழ் பிராமி கல்வெட்டுகள் - ஒரு வரலாற்று மதிப்பீடு; பக்க-167 தொல்லியல் ஆய்வுகள், Prof.கே.வி.ராமன் H.O.D.-Archeaological Dept. Chennai University. அணிந்துரை-Prof.கே.கே.பிள்ளைThis Article was Originally Published in Journal of Epigraphical Studies-Vol-I, as Article-Brahmi Inscriptions of Tamilnadu- A Historical Assessment.
தொல்காப்பியம்:- தொல்காப்பியர் இயற்றிய நூல் தொல்காப்பியம் எனப் பெயர் பெறும். எந்நூலுக்கும் இல்லாத தொன்மையும் சிறப்பும் பெற்றது இந்நூல். இது கடைச் சங்க நூல்களுக்குப் பிந்தியது எனக் கூறலாம் பக்க-92 கட்டுரை- சங்க கால இலக்கியங்கள், நூல் தமிழ்நாட்டு சமுதாய பண்பாட்டு வரலாறு. Prof. Dr.A.சுவாமிநாதன்.
Vedas were compiled much before drying of the Great River Saraswathi drying up, Drying of River took place in BCE 2100, and drying started by BCE 2300. Why would the Vedics refer to a river that had already dried up, if indeed they came to India in 1500 BCE, as is alleged by Max Mueller, long after the Sarasvati had dried up.Edwin Bryant pointed out that in Veda's Saraswati is mentioned as going from Mountains to Sea where as Afganistan’ Haravati does not. It seems like that Veda's also give other geographical descripiton of Saraswati which preclued Haravati as being Saraswati.The Route of the River Saraswathi has been mapped by Satellite pictures and also the Ground research over the route, the following link would provide much details to Friends.
http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/nsindex.htm - A site devoted to the Sarasvati/Sindhu Civilization. There is an on-line book at this site by a Dr.Kalyanaraman and several other goodies.
http://www.discoveringarchaeology.co...re1-indus.html This is a site with an article written for the layman. Kenoyer (one of the authors was born and brought up in India). Gives a layman's overview of the artifacts found at Harappa.
http://link.lanic.utexas.edu/asnic/s...ivization.html A short monograph on the Sarasvati/Sindhu civilization.
As Tholkappiyam was written after most of Sangam Lit., the Sanskrit Lit.’s Grammer Book Panini’s Ashtathyaayi, is written in 5TH Century BCE.(Dating as per Wikipedia- traditionally 520–460 BC, but estimates range from the 7th to 4th centuries BC). Panini in his effort contained the Grammer of Valmiki Ramayan dated to 1000BCE, and Mahabharat dated to 1000-600BCE, in his Grammer, however Panini could not contain the Vedas written in a Spoken way of libi as said by ThaniTamil Scholar Panmozipulavar-Appadurai.(His datings belong to Past superstitions of Aryan Invasions and absurd dates, I give them to maintain verbatim).
வேதமொழி உண்மையில் கி.மு.1500-800 வரை இந்திய ஆரியர் பஞ்ஞாபில் வாழ்ந்த காலத்தில் பேசி வந்த மொழியாகும். அவர்கள் கிழக்கே குருபாஞ்சால நாட்டிற்குப் பரவுவதற்குள் (கி.மு800-200) நூல்வழக்கு மொழியிலிருந்து பேச்சு மொழி நெடுந்தூரம் விலகிற்று. நூல்வழக்கு மொழி வேதமொழி என்றும், பேச்சுவழக்கு மொழி பாஷா என்றும் வழங்கின. மொழியறிஞரால் இது, பிற்கால வேதமொழி எனப்படும் உபநிடதங்கள் இதிகாச புராணங்கள் இதிலேயே இயற்றப்பட்டன. இவற்றில் வேதமொழிக்குப் பாஸ்கராலும் பிற்கால வேதமொழிக்குப் (பாஷா) பாணினியாலும் இலக்கணம் வகுக்கப்பட்டது.
பாணினியின் இலக்கணம் வேதமொழியினடிப்படையில் அமைந்ததனாலும்,.. .. பக்க-150, கட்டுரை- வடமொழி இலக்கியம், நூல்-உலக இலக்கியம்.
Every World Language, (including Tamil) of the world used Mainly Poetry form only, because they can be passed on to Generations by mouth; even though writing came in. This continued till Printing came. Tamil’ Dictionaries’ earlier form Nikandu’s are also in Poetic form only. Storing in Ola or any other form is Voluminous and maintaining for Generations is much more difficult. Hence Poetical Oral Trasnmission was trusted by Scholars of every Part of the World, including Tamil.
Vedas are not in general Sanskrit. Even a Scholar with good knowledge with Panini, could easily go wrong with Vedas, hence Vedas are not allowed to be written for long. Vedas have been discussed by Buddha as “Chandas”- (meaning Chantings and its Tamilised form சந்தங்கள்) and also Jain’s discussions of Pre Common Era. Vedas and Panini’ have been discussed by Greek Travelers books. Vedas are giving quiet a lot of information on development of Human Civilisation and studied and researched all over the world.
We have a quiet a lot of Sanskrit Manuscripts from 50-100BCE, and one or two even goes to first century BCE, on the Contrary Tamil Manuscripts are only from 17th Cen., CE. We do have Spoken Tamil Stone Inscriptions from 200BCE, In Brahmi-originally developed Libi for Sanskrit, where as Sanskrit Inscription starts from Girnar’ of 2nd Cen. CE. We do not have one Stone Inscription of Tamil using Poetical Tamil.
Now our dear friend, Mala refers TiruvalluvaMalai. Now let us see few more of TiruvalluvaMalai.
ஏதம்இல் வள்ளுவர் இன்குறள் வெண்பவினால்
ஓதிய ஒண்பொருள் எல்லாம்- உரைத்ததனால்
தாதுஅவிழ் தார்மாற! தாமே? தமைப்பயந்த
வேதமே மேதக் கன? -32 பெரும்சித்திரனார்
Kural is said as the Flowers in a Garland.
அறம்முப்பத் தெட்டுப், பொருள்எழுபது. இன்பத்
திறமெருபத்து ஐந்தால், தெளிய-முறைமையால்
வேதவிழுப் பொருளை வெண்குறளால் வள்ளுவனார்
ஓத வழுக்கற்றது உலகு. – 37, மதுரை பெருமருதனார்.
Valluvar took Vedas and developed it as Kural in a lighter manner.
வேதப் பொருளை விரகால் விரித்து, உலகோர்
ஓதத், தமிழால் உரைசெய்தார்; - ஆதலால்,
உள்ளுநர் உள்ளும் பொருலெல்லாம் உண்டுஎன்ப
வள்ளுவர் வாய்மொழி மாட்டு. செயலூர்க் கொடும் செங்கண்ணனார்.
Valluvar took Vedas, and translated to Tamil as Kural.
ஓதற்கு எளிதாய், உணர்தற்கு அரிதுஆகி,
வேதப்பொருளாய், மிகவிளங்கித், தீதுஅற்றோர்
உள்ளுதொறும் உள்ளுதொறும் உள்ளமுருக்குமே
வள்ளுவர் வாய்மொழி மாண்பு. 24,மாங்குடி மருதனார்.
ஆற்றல் அழியுமென்று அந்தணர்கள் நான்மறையைப்
போற்றி உரைத்து,ஏட்டின் புறத்துஎழுதார்- ஏட்டுஎழுதி
வல்லுநரும், வல்லாரும், வள்ளுவனார் முப்பாலைச்
சொல்லிடினும், ஆற்றல்சோர்வு இன்று. கோதமனார்
ஆரியமும் செந்தமிழும் ஆராய்ந்து, இதனினிது
சீரியது இன்றுஒன்றைச் செப்பரிதுஆல்- ஆரியம்,
வேதம் உடைத்துத், தமிழ்,திரு வள்ளுவனார்
ஓது குறட்பா உடைத்து. -43, வண்ணக்கம் சாத்தானார்.
Sanskrit and Tamil are equally great, none can be said as great; Sanskrit has Vedas and Tamil has Valluvar’ Kural.
We call them ThiruKural, Author as ThiruValluvar etc., only with the help of ThiruValluvaMalai, before which it was hardly recognized and rarely referred as muppaal. Mala raised many interesting points, but meaningless. It is again a case of making ssumptions. The problems are that the debate is really about these assumptions. I will try to answer as many of these points (one at a time) as time permits.
Again you make the assumption that Tamil came first chronologically. Do you have a basis for saying that? This is not a rhetorical question
இýÀÓõ ¦À¡ÕÙõ «ÈÛõ ±ýÈ¡íÌ
«ý¦À¡Î Ò½÷ó¾ ³ó¾¢¨½ ÁÕí¸¢ý
¸¡Áì Üð¼õ ¸¡Ïõ ¸¡¨Ä
Á¨È§Â¡÷ §¾±òÐ ÁýÈø ±ð¼Ûû
Ð¨È «¨Á ¿ø ¡úò Ш½¨Á§Â¡÷ இÂø§À- ¸ÇÅ¢Âø-1 and this is later confirmed by இறையனார் அகப்பொருளுரை which directly says Vedic Gandarvas- instead of Long Tholkappiyar; translation Ð¨È «¨Á ¿ø ¡úò Ш½¨Á§Â¡÷
அன்பின் ஐந்திணைக் களவென்பது படுவது
அந்தணர் அருமறை மன்றல் எட்டனுள்
கந்தர்வ வழக்கம் எனமனார் புலவர்- இறையனார் அகப்பொருளுரை
Now as per Vedic Tradition- Marriages are classified as
1. À¢ÃõÁ Ó¨È 2. ¨¾Å 3. ÷„ 4. À¢Ã¡ƒ¡ÀòÂõ 5 …¥Ã, 6.¸ó¾÷Å 7.ᇅ
ÁüÚõ 8. ¨Àº¡º Ó¨È.
//bis_mala wrote in the past: "Á¨È" ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø, ¦¾¡ø¸¡ôÀ¢Â áüÀ¡Å¢§Ä§Â þ¨º áø¸¨ÇÔõ ÌÈ¢ì¸ ÅÆí¸ôÀðÎûÇÐ ±ýÚ ¿¡ý Óý§À ±ÎòÐ측ðÊÔû§Çý.//
Yes mals is right, Musicians in Vedic Tradition is called Gandarvas(¿ø ¡úò Ш½¨Á§Â¡÷), and hence Music Books are called Gandarva Veda and Tholkappiyar calls them Marai is coorect
F.S.Gandhi vandayarDevoted Hubber Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:16 pm Post subject:
Silapathikaram & Manimekalai are Samanar books. Where do the Vedhic traditions come?
AND the above was agreed by mala, only proves what Friend Pavitra Said
I quote Pavitra- //And response of Bismala looks as Valluvar Said this, for an Uneducated man, to wishing to speak in an educated people forum is like a Girl without any breasts who wants to show her beauty. The show by a Breastless lady would not be attractive and similarly the Man without proper Knowledge to speak. Kallathaan Sol Kaamuruthal mulai irandum IllaathavaL peN kaamuRRARRU.— Kural 402. ¸øÄ¡¾¡ý ¦º¡ü¸¡ ÓÚ¾ø ӨĢÃñÎõ இøÄ¡¾¡û ¦Àñ¸¡Óü ÈüÚ. 402//
From –www.tamilnation.org- Article on SilappathikAram.
SilappathikAram was written by iLangO atikaL (இளங்கோ அடிகள்), a Jain monk. It contains 3 chapters (புகார்க் காண்டம், மதுரைக் காண்டம், வஞ்சிக் காண்டம்) and a total of 5270 lines. Anyone who has read the original text of this epic could not help marvel at its author, iLangO atikaL (இளங்கோ அடிகள்) who was able to maintain the tempo and passions associated with human interactions throughout the work.
The outstanding feature of SilappathikAram is the equanimity of its author, iLangO atikaL towards religion, society and politics. Though he was a Jain monk, iLangO atikaL did not use the epic to spread the principles of Jainism. Whatever religious inputs he may have made blended nicely with the flow of the story. This is quite unlike the twin epic, MaNimEklai (மண்மேகலை) in which its author, SAtthanAr (சாத்தனார்) used the work to teach Buddhist philosophy.
KaNNaki regained her composure to add that only the evil minded be destroyed by the fire but not brahmins, ascetics, cows, chaste women, children, old people and the disabled.
பார்ப்பார் அறவோர் பசுப் பத்தினிப் பெண்டிர்
முத்தோர் குழவி யெனுமிவரை கைவிட்டுத்
தீதிறத்தார் பக்கமே சேர்கென்று காய்த்திய
பொற்றொடி ஏவப் புகையழல் மண்டிற்றே
நற்றோரான் கூடல் நகர்.
(வஞ்சின மாலை 53-57.)
(அழல் மண்டிற்று = தீ பற்றி அழித்தது)
From www.wikipedia Article on SilappathikAram -Silapathikaram is a work which Main characters
· Kovalan - Son of a wealthy merchant in Puhar
· Kannagi - Wife of Kovalan
· Masattuvan - A wealthy grain merchant and the father of Kovalan
· Madhavi - A beautiful courtesan
· Vacavadattai - Madavi's female friend
· Kosigan - Madavi's messenger to Kovalan
· Madalan - A Brahmin visitor to Madurai from Puhar
· Kavunthi Adigal - A woman ascetic
· Neduncheliyan - Pandya king
· Kopperundevi - Pandya Queen
From www.wikipedia Article on Gajabahu I
Gajabahu I (lit. 'Elephant-Arm'), also known as Gajabahuka Gamani (c.114 - 136 CE) was a Sinhalese king of Rajarata in Sri Lanka. He is renowned for his religious benefactions, extensive involvement in south Indian politics, and for possibly introducing the cult of the goddess Pattini to Sri Lanka.
Silapathikaram refers to Gajabahu I coming for festival clearly giving Historical dating of 3rd Century writing, within Two Centuries from Tholkappiyam and almost contermporary of Kural.
º¡Ä¢ ´ÕÁ£ý ¾¨¸Â¡¨Çì §¸¡ÅÄý
Á¡ÓÐ À¡÷ôÀ¡ý Á¨ÈÅÆ¢ ¸¡ðʼò
¾£ÅÄõ ¦ºöÅÐ ¸¡ñÀ¡÷ì¸ñ §¿¡ýÒ±ý¨É.
Å¢¨Ã¢É÷ ÁÄâÉ÷ Å¢ÇíÌ §ÁÉ¢Â÷
¯¨Ã¢É÷ À¡ðÊÉ÷ ´º¢ó¾ §¿¡ì¸¢É÷ - And the Marriage from Sangam, Thol, Silapathikaram days are as same as todays.
Dr. Ambedkar, who was never a Hinduism supporter, wrote:
1.THe Vedas do not know any such race as the Aryan race.
2.There is no evidence in the Vedas of any invasion of India by the Aryan race and its having conquered the Dasas and Dasyus supposed to be the natives of India.
3.There is no evidience to show that the distinction between Aryans, Dasas and Dasyus was a racial distinction.
4. THe Vedas do not support the contention that the Aryas were different in colour from the Dasas and Dayus .....
" If anthropometry is a science which can be depended upon to determine the race of a people ..... then its measurements extablish that the Brahmins and the Untouchables belong to the same race. From this it follows that if the Brahmins are Aryans the Untouchables are also Aryans. If the Brahmins are Dravidians, the Untouchables are also Dravidians....
WRITINGS AND SPEECHES - EDUCATION Dept. Govt. of Mahrashtra vol -7 page 85 and 302-303.
The Casteism is increased due to the Dravidian rule.
The Dravidian Fathers want their Posting and Party Leadership to their Sons. Eg.Karunanidhi, Ramdoss etc., practicsing Varnasram dharma.
To quote Dr. Ambedkar : “The theory of [Aryan] invasion is an invention. It is a perversion of scientific investigation, it is not allowed to evolve out of facts.... It falls to the ground at every point.”[11] All available evidence shows that India’s civilization, whose roots go back even before the Harappan civilization, grew on Indian soil. As the U.S. archaeologist Jim Shaffer puts it :
Current archaeological data do not support the existence of an Indo-Aryan or European invasion into South Asia any time in the pre- or protohistoric periods. Instead, it is possible to document archaeologically a series of cultural changes reflecting indigenous cultural developments from prehistoric to historic periods.[12]
John Marshall remarked in 1931, “[THE HARAPPAN] RELIGION IS SO CHARACTERISTICALLY INDIAN AS HARDLY TO BE DISTINGUISHED FROM STILL LIVING HINDUISM.
There is no name Dravidians at all in Sangam Lit, and we have onlhy one Indian i.e., Vedic.
Devapriya