Films of Mani Ratnam

PR, let me start with your last question:

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

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Originally Posted by kannannn

Anyway, all of Mani's movies are a coming together of the best. What is his director's mark? Where does his uniqueness lie?

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I don't understand this at all. Isn't the director's job exactly about the getting the best out the team. He gets the best out of his MDs, lyricists, his actors and technicians.

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A director's job is not only to get the best out of his team. There needs to be a special touch, a special perspective. I find that lacking in Mani's movies (atleast in the ones he made after Nayagan). I hate to do it, but I have to bring in my favourite - and incidentally Mani's too - director into the discussion: Bharatiraja. Did he have the best technicians in all his movies? He had in some, he didn't in others. But does that stop us from appreciating the way he tackles the issues? No. In fact, there is that stamp of Bharatiraja in all his movies. You still appreciate the way he makes a statement on casteism, women's liberation, unemployment or generation gap. It doesn't really matter if the songs are great. It doesn't really matter if the room is strategically lit to make it difficult for the viewers to identify the characters. Film making goes beyond these. It should make the viewers think. It should make hubbers open threads to discuss the director's perspective and hidden meanings. Even a movie like Sigappu Rojakkal has a thousand things to discuss about.

So that brings us back to the question: What is Mani's stamp? Courage? No. Subtlety and symbolism? - heck, no. We just see scenes unfold before us for 2.5 hours with good music, cinematography, editing and (sometimes) dialogues. That's about it. From my experience, the only way you can say a movie is Mani's is by the characters' half sentences and dim-lit rooms. That can hardly qualify as director's mark.

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

Agree that dialogues (suhAsini) were very very ordinary in Iruvar. Some parts played up the word-tactics well (like the nANayathukku iraNdu pakkam by thamizchelvan in the assembly and nAn mEdai pEchALaNA by Anandhan on stage). But MR seemed to cut every scene short of its greatness (like Nasser commentiing to Prakash Rak ; unga naNbarukky makkaLai eppidi thanvasappaduthaNumnu therinjirukku. Why do you need to say those lines ?

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You hit the nail on the head. What troubled me throughout the movie was how each point was unncessarily, pain-stakingly being reinforced. For example, Prakash Raj's dialogues at the beginning ("Saanikku pottittu saami endru kumbidum..") makes it loud and clear about his views and personality. His later conversation with Mohan Lal atop the building about his political goals (which BTW was very artificial and poorly handled) again makes some of his views clear. Why the unnecessary 'Kavidhai nadai' with Revathi about how men and women are equal, on their first night?! I only felt like crying out, "Dude! We get the picture."

There is a particular scene in "Hazaron Khwaishen Aisi" that reminded me of Iruvar. Kay Kay asks Shiney Ahuja why he doesn't have any political views or ideologies, to which he replies: "Your father is a judge and you have time and money in your hands to have ideologies and fight for them. I am a simple middle class man who has to find a job to make ends meet. I can't afford to have ideologies". Contrast this with the scene where Mohan Lal informs Prakash Raj about the loss of their job. Prakash Raj waxes eloquent (again "arghhh...") about the new party and its goals, to which Mohan Lal responds in anger, explaining how his family has suffered and how all he can think about is his sustenance. The scene in HKA was simple and beautiful while the one in Iruvar was loud and artificial. I think you get the point.

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

To say MohanlAl was the only saving grace in Iruvar is unfair. PrakAsh Raj richly deserved his national award. The scene with the flower crown when the crowd rushes away when Anandan arrives, is beautiful. Even the reaction in the railway station when he is informed of Anandan's death. The scene where he butts in (before anyone else does) to tell Anandan that he had objected to his nomination.

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The point is, such scenes are few and far between. OTOH, Mohan Lal turns in a cool, natural performance through out the movie (the scene atop the building I mentioned and the scene where he responds in anger to the director who ventures to teach him about holding the sword are but a few). BTW, according to Adoor, Mani has used Mohan Lal the best till date.

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

RahmAn was excellent. Imagine the opportunity to recreate Tamil films from ManthirikumAri to AnbE Vaa. Has he ever used ManO before/since 'aayirathil nAn oruvan ?'.

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Absolutely agree. I rave about his music in Iruvar to my friends all the time. His genius comes through in the movie. None of the songs sound ripped off from the old ones, yet they recreate the effect of the era. I just have a small complain though. He has excessively used the BGM piece where the music rises in a crescendo, whenever there is a dramatic incident on screen.

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

In the foreword to Sujatha's screenwriting book , MR mentions that he is forced to write because of the paucity of writers. The line you quote from Kannathil MuthamittAl is of course dumb. BombAy climax was as dumb as it gets.

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I too read about the lack of writers for Mani. But that shouldn't stop him from making movies with sensible dialogues.

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

That his dialogues are too short is blown out of proportion.

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Strongly disagree. It irritates me when his characters mouth made-up half sentences, that fall between silent communication and full sensible phrases. I for one can't understand what does he wants to show with such dialogues?

I Saw the movie on last saturday in Albert theatre. I went to the movie with lot of expectations. But I was disappoined with the movie. :(

<IMO>
It is pretty average movie. It is not as great as his previous movies.

Madhavan,Vidhya Balan charecters were wasted .I dont understand What Mani is going to convey to people thru this movie.

I read it in some blogs Comparing Abisheks performance with Nayagan(IMO It is not the Greatest performance of KH) Kamal performance. But Abishek hasnot done 25% of what Kamal did in Nayagan.

And Vikram ,Surya ,Ajith,Madavan could have done better than Abishek.

The Climax is one of the worst thing for the film. We have seen these kind of scenes in Many movies.

Plus points are A.R.Rahman Rajiv menon and Surya's Voice. :D

Again he proved he is the one of the most hyped director of India.

</IMO>

<Dig>

Lot of Audiences appluased and whistled like anything when they seen A.R.Rahman name in Title. That is the happiest thing for me. He should do more movies in TAMIL for the fans . :D
</Dig>

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Originally Posted by Rajkumar_mj

I Saw the movie on last saturday in Albert theatre. I went to the movie with lot of expectations. But I was disappoined with the movie. :(

<IMO>
It is pretty average movie. It is not as great as his previous movies.

Madhavan,Vidhya Balan charecters were wasted .I dont understand What Mani is going to convey to people thru this movie.

I read it in some blogs Comparing Abisheks performance with Nayagan(IMO It is not the Greatest performance of KH) Kamal performance. But Abishek hasnot done 25% of what Kamal did in Nayagan.

And Vikram ,Surya ,Ajith,Madavan could have done better than Abishek.

The Climax is one of the worst thing for the film. We have seen these kind of scenes in Many movies.

Plus points are A.R.Rahman Rajiv menon and Surya's Voice. :D

Again he proved he is the one of the most hyped director of India.

</IMO>

<Dig>

Lot of Audiences appluased and whistled like anything when they seen A.R.Rahman name in Title. That is the happiest thing for me. He should do more movies in TAMIL for the fans . :D
</Dig>

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then u shuld listen to the claps that he gets in north theatres......he should go to Hindi only.......tell me one award that a tamil magazine/tamilnadu govt./tamil organisation has given ARR in the past 6-7 years??? he has much more respect and adulation in north...... 8-)

Did u see Guru in Tamil?? Hindi version was simply superb.....vintage mani.....i think he also better stay in Hindi.......nothing wrong man, these 2 can live in Chennai and still work for hindi movies..... :D ......but unfortunately both are gonna work in tamil movies and get beaten up like vadivel...... :lol:

yeanpa, neenga adikkaradha continue pannungappa......hamma,hamma......ippadiye adichu adichu odambu-ellam rana galam aaidichae pa.... :cry:

Maddy....why do you say that Maniratnam and ARR are not appreciated in our Tamil Land....I think ARR and Maniratnam combo is the best....I would put this ahead than ARR+Shankar combo...hmm...by the way we shouldn't see Guru in Tamil...I don't understand why Maniratnam dubbed this movie in Tamil..The tamil movie will flop as the movie is with Mumbai/Gujarati backdrop....

Saying Guru is vintage Mani is tantamount to insulting Mani. He has done much better films.

Rajkumar_mj,
You haven't missed much by seeing it in Thamizh, though it would have been better in Hindi, as it would be with any dubbed movie

MADDY,

WHAT SHOULD U EXPECT TAMIL PEOPLE TO DO?

GIVE THE CM POST TO ARR AND MANI?

look...its tamil people who encouraged them!

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Originally Posted by MADDY

Did u see Guru in Tamil?? Hindi version was simply superb.....vintage mani.....i think he also better stay in Hindi.......nothing wrong man, these 2 can live in Chennai and still work for hindi movies..... :D ......but unfortunately both are gonna work in tamil movies and get beaten up like vadivel...... :lol:

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Raj,

Even I share the same opinion go back few pages . But i really enjoyed Madhavan acting probly they should have strectched his part till climax. He was missing is the final part.

Vintage Mani for this movie :shock: :shock: :shock:

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Originally Posted by great

Vintage Mani for this movie :shock: :shock: :shock:

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yaenpa kannungala - PR,Kannan,Thinkfloyd,great,Thimuru - ippadi round katti maniratnatha thaakkareengale........avaru hindi-la dhaane padam eduthaaru......mannichi vittudunga..... :cry:

vintage mani - y not???? :?

vidya balan - Abhishek, rite from her childhood says she will marry guru, just for fun......when abhishek meets her after her marriage , she ties raakhi to abhishek......wow, that was so subtle and romantic.... :D

Ash- when the panel tells her that she would also go to jail if she accepts she is 50% partner for Guru's business for which ash replies i'm his 50% partner in life too..... :shock: .....thats mani,.,,......now ask ur selvaraghavan or cheran to bring up such emotion...... :evil:

these are just samples...... :D ......

sinthiya- thread start pannittu engama pona??? maniratnam-a oru vazhi pannitaanga......ithu thevaya?? :cry:

the truth remains that Maniratnam is the most over-hyped director in India..

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Originally Posted by Saamy

the truth remains that Maniratnam is the most over-hyped director in India..

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is he in Tamilnadu??? i guess Bharathirajan is considered the best amongst yesteryears and all these "bachhuus" in the current gen.....Mani, infact has no place in Tamil films......only his HC fans want his movies.....

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Originally Posted by MADDY

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Originally Posted by Saamy

the truth remains that Maniratnam is the most over-hyped director in India..

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is he in Tamilnadu??? i guess Bharathirajan is considered the best amongst yesteryears and all these "bachhuus" in the current gen.....Mani, infact has no place in Tamil films......only his HC fans want his movies.....

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yes he lives in alwarpet, chennai, tamilnadu, india.

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Originally Posted by Saamy

yes he lives in alwarpet, chennai, tamilnadu, india.

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i asked, is he hyped by tamil media, tamil ppl. also?? :D .....i know north media go over the roof in appreciating him....

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Originally Posted by MADDY

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Originally Posted by Saamy

yes he lives in alwarpet, chennai, tamilnadu, india.

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i asked, is he hyped by tamil media, tamil ppl. also?? :D .....i know north media go over the roof in appreciating him....

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the northies go over the roof, because they were only used to mediocore people. ARR and mani are good. but they hype them as greatest .. :lol: :lol:

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Originally Posted by Saamy

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Originally Posted by MADDY

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Originally Posted by Saamy

yes he lives in alwarpet, chennai, tamilnadu, india.

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i asked, is he hyped by tamil media, tamil ppl. also?? :D .....i know north media go over the roof in appreciating him....

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the northies go over the roof, because they were only used to mediocore people. ARR and mani are good. but they hype them as greatest .. :lol: :lol:

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yes yes Mani and ARR are only good not great.....i know.... :D .....btw, northies hyped kamalhassan also to a great extent in the 80's..... :lol: .......

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Originally Posted by MADDY

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Originally Posted by Saamy

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Originally Posted by MADDY

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Originally Posted by Saamy

yes he lives in alwarpet, chennai, tamilnadu, india.

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i asked, is he hyped by tamil media, tamil ppl. also?? :D .....i know north media go over the roof in appreciating him....

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the northies go over the roof, because they were only used to mediocore people. ARR and mani are good. but they hype them as greatest .. :lol: :lol:

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yes yes Mani and ARR are only good not great.....i know.... :D .....btw, northies hyped kamalhassan also to a great extent in the 80's..... :lol: .......

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yes but really, kamal is not only good but great.. 8-)

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Originally Posted by Saamy

yes but really, kamal is not only good but great.. 8-)

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Aaandavaraeeee !!! :notworthy: :P :wink:

Guru is a great movie with respect to portrayal of the director's thoughts. Had the story been more focussed on the protagonist and had not digressed to less relevant things, the movie could have very well competed with other movies of Mani. More relevant scenes, IMO, would be scenes relating to how GuruKanth Desai toiled hard to make such a vast empire and to outsmart his scourges. These scened could have been accommodated in the place of a few songs and a few romantic scenes involving madhavan and vidhya. Probably, Mani must have assumed that people know every hardship underwent by Dhirubhai and hence kept his focus only on conjuring up a climax that would lead to justifying every deed of Dhirubhai under the pretext of developing the nation.

As Mani had said, Abhisekh carries the entire film in his shoulders. Anybody could have done Aishwarya's role and would have suited better. I dont mean to say that Aishwarya bungled her job. She was too much for that role similar to Kamal in VV. IMO, Mani casted aish to reinforce his clout in the tinsel town and to rub salts on the wounds of Shankar and Rajini. The dialogues were spot on and a perfect Gujarathi slang was as good as the Bengali slang perfectly captured in Yuva (especially Om Puri's).

Well, am surprised at nobody mentioning about the irritatingly shaky and hazy camera work at the initial part of the movie. Rajiv menon had said that it was to represent the ebullience of the youth. The camera gets steady as guru progresses with age. Is it really necessary to shake the cameras to reinforce that gurukanth is young and energetic? The sets of bombay looked great. Though there was a scene where abhisekh talks with mithun with a lot of high-rise buildings in the background. i suspect if such building existed in the late sixties. And no wonder, Mani will stick with Rahman.

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Originally Posted by Nerd

2. The initial tussle between Aish and Abhi was made up just for the tere bina song and abhi did not even try to explain his stance on that matter.

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I feel there was nothing to explain there. Both knew there was true love between them. Though, as always, a few truths hurt and humans react well before they could think. Aish leaves, repents in solitude and forgives him when he comes back.

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4. Dialogues, though powerful most of the times (especially the 5 minutes thing) was not so good in a few scenes.

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if you could, quote a few pls.

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Originally Posted by Nerd

But the point is there are better movies than nAyakan which could not find a place in the Time's list :(

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Good Point Nerd :thumbsup: . We dont need lesser related critics to tell us how great/or not our movies are. We always knew nayagan is great. There wouldnt have been any disappointment even if nayagan couldnt have found a place in the Times' list or Dil Se not entering the UK top ten. Though, we cant hide our happiness when our movies find a spot(global recognition) they deserve.

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Originally Posted by MADDY

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Originally Posted by Saamy

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Originally Posted by MADDY

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Originally Posted by Saamy

yes he lives in alwarpet, chennai, tamilnadu, india.

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i asked, is he hyped by tamil media, tamil ppl. also?? :D .....i know north media go over the roof in appreciating him....

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the northies go over the roof, because they were only used to mediocore people. ARR and mani are good. but they hype them as greatest .. :lol: :lol:

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yes yes Mani and ARR are only good not great.....i know.... :D .....btw, northies hyped kamalhassan also to a great extent in the 80's..... :lol: .......

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//dig
Maddy

Please don't pull Kamal here. We have a lot of threads. You can bash him there.

BTW-> Kamal was not hyped to great Extent as you said. But Nothies Made him to quit Bollywood because of Fear. He doesn't need any hype.

//dig

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Originally Posted by kannannn

In fact, there is that stamp of Bharatiraja in all his movies. You still appreciate the way he makes a statement on casteism, women's liberation, unemployment or generation gap.

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Am not sure if this is a proper yardstick at all. But when barathiraja sets out to 'say' something he becomes less of what I like him for.

For instance in NizhalgaL. The role played by RajashEkar was really memorable but the dialgues spoken (for instance when his friends desert him) let down the whole thing. Atleast with MR you know that he is trying to be clever with the lines. With BR it is bad because he earnestly means those lines.

I won't even talk about NizalgaL Ravi's romantic (!) sequences. MR would have definitely written and exectuted the scenes much much better. Am too pained to dwell on the tubby angels accompanying Chandrashekar in madai thiranthu. To borrow your expression, IR was the saving grace of NizhalgaL.

Ironic as it is, BR the groundbreaker can't resist a cliche. PudumaippeN is my least favourite film (wait, that's gaptun's thamizhchelvan).VEdam Pudhidhu is appealing not just because he had something to say , but because he said it well. After that all movies had tumbling brass pots.

BR is at his finest when he is out to tell a story. Melodrama notwithstanding Kizakku CheemaiyilE is bang of target in terms of locale. And it's not just because it was his neck of the woods. Very few movies have brought out Madras kuppams like En uyir ThOzhan. But I hate it when the yellow letters with his voice-over ends the film (with his anbudan signature). What kind of understanding of film is that ? It worked once in 16 VayathinilE and En uyir thozan (vidai thanthAl vidiyumA, vidindhAl vidai varumA) but it has ruined many (nizalgaL, vedam puthithu etc)


MR has never made a downright terrible film. Yes he has gone about explaining stuff, not trusting the viewer to make sense of the subtleties, dumb dialogues. But the disappointment has always been that the movie could have been much better or that his climaxes are cop-outs (though more variety than the invariably deathly climaxes of BR).

But BR has messed up more movies (on a per good movie basis) than MR has. He has made too many unbearably ordinary films with no 'marks' whatseover.If you imply 'mark' as a continuous pattern running all through all the works I don't quite agree such a thing is necessary at all.

MR's mark, as I see it, has been to push the cart further from where BR brought, by a greater emphasis to visual storytelling. His lasting contribution would be raising the bar on the content we see on screen. I felt in the middle of the riot in Bombay (though by the climax I also wished I had a cudgel) , I felt soaking wet watching andhi mazhai mEgam, could feel the sparks fly when the camera circumambulates the meeting between SuryA-DEvA and the collector.

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Originally Posted by kannannn

It irritates me when his characters mouth made-up half sentences, that fall between silent communication and full sensible phrases. I for one can't understand what does he wants to show with such dialogues?

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Well let me rephrase. With the kind of emphasis that's been given to MR's 'crisp' dialogues, it is made to look as if all the characters in all his films speak that way. That is not true. Again I'd bring up the example of alaipAyuthE. The scene where Pyramid Natarajan visits Shalini's house is extremely well written. Usually Tamil cinema formula where the rich baddie is all overt about his prejudices or is overflowing with the milk pf human kindness. MR portrayed him (as well his proudly insecure opposite number) extremely well as the friction develops when the conversation proceeds. Such things are forgotten and MR is always remembered for "Yen ?" "DevA !". That is unfortunate.

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Originally Posted by MADDY

yaenpa kannungala - PR,Kannan,Thinkfloyd,great,Thimuru - ippadi round katti maniratnatha thaakkareengale........

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thAkkinEnA ? :roll: I thought I had just painstakingly defended Iruvar, which was no mean achievement (I mean the movie not my defence :P)

[quote="MADDY"]

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trust me, i wont kill my father for having a second wife.... :lol: ......i would embrace that family too......dont u guys think so?? (hope my son also doesent mind infidelity :wink: )

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idharkku paer dhaan tholai nokku paarvaiyo?

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mani is making one more Hindi movie after Lajjo and is set to retire after that/....... :lol: ........we(TF) guys have already lost him.....u have btter people, dont worry..... :D ......

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No hint of retirement from mani. In fact he sounded like he has just entered the film industry and had said "i would never get bored of film making" courtesy - CNNibn interview.

"btw, dubbing Guru in Tamil is a mistake......."
i couldnt bear the lyrics of "rendu maanga doi". there was a desperate attempt to make a literal translation from hindi. sounded very awkward.

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Originally Posted by Nerd

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Originally Posted by thinkfloyd

That's the reason some of his films have the most inexplicably dumb and simplistic endings - Roja, Bombay and now, Guru.

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I will just take this sentance.

Bombay climax was pathetic and you ve hit the bulls eye :)

I dont know how else to end rOjA and guru. Lets take guru for example. How will you suggest MR to have ended that film ?? Seeing gurubhai dying with a background song similar to thenpANdi ?? IMHO, the climax saved the otherwise dull second half.

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Well, then you are supposed to give an alternate climax for bombay.

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Originally Posted by OnMyWay

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Nerd, I don't know if Karunanidhi really asks his wife 'Oru kuvaLayil kuLambi neer kondu, vaa en komaLame'. But, fair enough!! Maybe, just one of the many things we disagree on Smile .

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kulavi- tumbler
kulambi neer?

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kulavi :?: :rotfl: no explanation needed... obviously a typo.

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

RahmAn was excellent. Imagine the opportunity to recreate Tamil films from ManthirikumAri to AnbE Vaa. Has he ever used ManO before/since 'aayirathil nAn oruvan ?'.

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Mano had sung three beautiful songs for thiruda thiruda - kannum kannum, veerapaandi and putham pudhu bhoomi.

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

Am not sure if this is a proper yardstick at all. But when barathiraja sets out to 'say' something he becomes less of what I like him for.

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I know it is not a proper yardstick, but I mentioned Bharatiraja only in the context of director's 'mark'. It could be any other director (even Balachandar, not my favourite, has his 'mark').

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

For instance in NizhalgaL. The role played by RajashEkar was really memorable but the dialgues spoken (for instance when his friends desert him) let down the whole thing. Atleast with MR you know that he is trying to be clever with the lines. With BR it is bad because he earnestly means those lines.

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Nizhalgal is a good example, because it is not BR's best. But the movie is intersperced with fine gems. Let me quote a few: the scene where the heroine (buying vegetables) finds out that Ravi was after all not making gestures at her but was calling for tea from the road-side shop. As she smiles in embarrassment, the weighting scales even out, suggesting a change in her assessment of him. The college student running along the sea shore is a recurring theme in the movie, referring to his love for nature and his desire to be free. This aspect is further brought out when his college teacher lectures him on the importance of attending class, simultaneously plucking off the petals from the plant nearby. The student is no longer paying attention to him but is infuriated by the teacher's lack of respect for nature, and finally slaps him. This single scene describes what is in the mind of BR. No college education can teach you to admire and respect nature. And the student has learnt the greatest lesson in life inspite of being a truant. One can go on and on, but I'll stop here, lest the thread turns into a BR retrospective. So, most movies of BR have something hidden that requires to be pulled out, analyzed and fitted with the rest of the movie.

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

I won't even talk about NizalgaL Ravi's romantic (!) sequences. MR would have definitely written and exectuted the scenes much much better. Am too pained to dwell on the tubby angels accompanying Chandrashekar in madai thiranthu.

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That particular romantic scene was meant to be raw. It didn't have a well dressed hero speaking smart pick-up lines, but if it did, it wouldn't have fitted into the movie. That's the way the characters are. Notwithstanding this fact, I do accept that Mani does a great job in romantic sequences, but even there, he can't stretch it into a full-length romantic movie (Idhayathai Thirudadhey being the case in point).

I must also accept that BR does a tacky job of his songs. But then, I am against songs in movies anyway, so it doesn't matter.

The point I am trying to convey is, even in a movie like Nizhalgal his realism stands out. I find that lacking in Mani's movies.

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

MR has never made a downright terrible film. Yes he has gone about explaining stuff, not trusting the viewer to make sense of the subtleties, dumb dialogues. But the disappointment has always been that the movie could have been much better or that his climaxes are cop-outs (though more variety than the invariably deathly climaxes of BR).

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That's exactly what I don't want in a movie. Even Bhagyaraj has, in his peak given consistently enjoyable, rooted-to-the-soil, realistic movies. But that doesn't make him a better director that BR.

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

With the kind of emphasis that's been given to MR's 'crisp' dialogues, it is made to look as if all the characters in all his films speak that way. That is not true. Again I'd bring up the example of alaipAyuthE. The scene where Pyramid Natarajan visits Shalini's house is extremely well written. Usually Tamil cinema formula where the rich baddie is all overt about his prejudices or is overflowing with the milk pf human kindness. MR portrayed him (as well his proudly insecure opposite number) extremely well as the friction develops when the conversation proceeds. Such things are forgotten and MR is always remembered for "Yen ?" "DevA !". That is unfortunate.[

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Hmm.. It is embarrasing to say this, but I will anyway. I found Alai Payuthe to be 'cute' and the dialogues good but only till a certain stage. He seemed to have reverted back to his old self after the lead pair moved into the half-built apartment (perhaps, Sujatha washing his hands off midway contributed to this?).

Anyway, let me sum up my view: Mani's movies have high production values, great acting and in some cases good dialogues. But they are never fulfilling and never offer realistic solutions. They also have some good moments in them, but I feel they are there just to cheat the viewers, intersperced among his usual aesthetically pleasing songs and extraordinary situations. Take these out and I don't think Mani will command the respect he does today.

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Originally Posted by MADDY

yaenpa kannungala - PR,Kannan,Thinkfloyd,great,Thimuru - ippadi round katti maniratnatha thaakkareengale........avaru hindi-la dhaane padam eduthaaru......mannichi vittudunga..... :cry:

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Now this is getting irritating. You seem to take every issue personally. ARR, Kamal, Gautham, Mani....
Pl read Prabhu's post again mine too. How does it matter whether Mani makes a film in Hindi or Tulu??? You are hell bent on slotting people under one category according to your whim and fancy. Where is the Tamil vs Hindi thing here you seem very eager to create?
I said i didn't find Guru impressive at all and that he has made better films than this. The forum is about discussing what we like or what we don't like in films and this thread is about Mani's new releases. Where's the Tamil Hindi connection here? If you disagree with my points or Kannan's please state so and respond to the issues instead of making it a regional, linguistic or personal issue.

BTW, what makes you think 'we' shouldn't comment on Mani's films because "avaru Hindi la dhaane padam edukkararu"?? Kuthagaikku eduthirukeengala?

thinkfloyd, very well put!! I wish people would answer the concerns and put forth their point of view like Nerd or PR. Else, how can one understand what is on the mind of hubbers like MADDY?! If one thinks a director is great, it is only natural that they give reasons for the same. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by kannannn

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

That his dialogues are too short is blown out of proportion.

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Strongly disagree. It irritates me when his characters mouth made-up half sentences, that fall between silent communication and full sensible phrases. I for one can't understand what does he wants to show with such dialogues?

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I will just take this point. I am a big fan of MR dialgues (or whoever that writes in a MR movie). Lets keep iruvar aside for sometime (havent seen it lately). Lets take thaLapathi. Deva would ask one of his men to surrender to Rajini out of the jail. Rajini would be perplexed and would not know whats going on.

He asks, yen

The other guy replies deva

Now thats brilliant, aint it :P

Dialogues in thaLapthi are one of his best, if not THE best. Even in dil se (one of his less acclaimed works), the dialogues were top-notch. I was not very impressed with the dialogues in his latest guru though.

You don't need pages of dialogues and BR (I like him more than MR, btw) would milk the situation with excessive dialogues and sometimes his protoganist keeps talking for no apparent reason. (e.g. kizhakku cheemayilE, vijayakumar the thaaimaaman thing. Give it a break, dude :) )

kannannn talked about the director's touch. Common, some of BR's so called touches (or you can hail them as subtleties) are irritating to say the least (angels flying, sea waves, birds flying et all)

And MR is very good in dealing with relations, though many would disagree with me on this:
- Anjali and her family . Anjali and Prabhu
- simran and her adopted child
- rOja and rishi
- Manisha and arvind (Bombay first half was kickass)
- velu nayakkar and his daughter/son
- I guess I dont have to talk about mouna raagam here.

Also MR does not make you think once you come out of the theatre (You can actually count the number of mainstream TAMIL MOVIES that makes you think).

To sum up, MR is great because
- He makes a movie that is gripping till the end
- His movies are technically spectacular
- The cast churn out amazing performances
- He often writes awesome dialogues
- He is very good at portraying a complex relation
- He is versataile

I might have missed some and might have exaggerated some :)

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Originally Posted by Saamy

the truth remains that Maniratnam is the most over-hyped director in India..

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but the absolute truth is that Maniratnam has no competition and is the best director of current times, at least as far as India is concerned!

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Originally Posted by NOV

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Originally Posted by Saamy

the truth remains that Maniratnam is the most over-hyped director in India..

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but the absolute truth is that Maniratnam has no competition and is the best director of current times, at least as far as India is concerned!

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YEA-UH!!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

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Originally Posted by NOV

but the absolute truth is that Maniratnam has no competition and is the best director of current times, at least as far as India is concerned!

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Yay Baby! :boo: :redjump:

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Originally Posted by NOV

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Originally Posted by Saamy

the truth remains that Maniratnam is the most over-hyped director in India..

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but the absolute truth is that Maniratnam has no competition and is the best director of current times, at least as far as India is concerned!

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Yes. U just proved my statement. :lol:

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Originally Posted by Rajkumar_mj

//dig
Maddy

Please don't pull Kamal here. We have a lot of threads. You can bash him there.

BTW-> Kamal was not hyped to great Extent as you said. But Nothies Made him to quit Bollywood because of Fear. He doesn't need any hype.

//dig

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where did i bash kamal here??? :shock: :shock: .....this is getting crazy........if u guys want me to stop typing the word "Kamal" then i wont......please tell me wat else u need from me.....i stopped coming into kamal threads long back.....and i refrain from referring to kamal in my posts........damn, still i get faulted by u guys.... :?

btw, ppl. who are bashing mani here seem to be ur guy's fans only.... :evil:

his versality is :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:

from love in alaipayuthu,mouna raagam
patriotism in roja,uyirae
religion in bombay
childishness in anjali, kannathil muththamittal
hatred in agninatchathiram
untouchabiliy in indhira
friendship and mother-son senti in thalapathy
selfconfidence- GURU

sho abba ippave kanna kattuthey..

oru manushan ivlo va deep-a think panrathu..

he became so classy that people think its proud or dignity to say maniratnam is their fav director

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Originally Posted by kannannn

Nizhalgal is a good example, because it is not BR's best. But the movie is intersperced with fine gems. Let me quote a few: the scene where the heroine (buying vegetables) finds out that Ravi was after all not making gestures at her but was calling for tea from the road-side shop. As she smiles in embarrassment, the weighting scales even out, suggesting a change in her assessment of him. The college student running along the sea shore is a recurring theme in the movie, referring to his love for nature and his desire to be free. This aspect is further brought out when his college teacher lectures him on the importance of attending class, simultaneously plucking off the petals from the plant nearby. The student is no longer paying attention to him but is infuriated by the teacher's lack of respect for nature, and finally slaps him. This single scene describes what is in the mind of BR. No college education can teach you to admire and respect nature. And the student has learnt the greatest lesson in life inspite of being a truant.

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Hmmm....true. Perhaps I haven't watched it that carefully (like the scales stuff). But the 'jobs jobs' chant during the titles is as subtle as pronouncing the b is subtle.

I still feel the RajshEkar bit only almost there (if at all). I remember one more nice scene in the park where he is matching the swaras to the plant and smiling to himself at his own discovery. But lines like "nAn pAdangaLai vida padangaLai thAn virumbirEn" has a nails-on-the-blackboard effect on me. "Why did you say that ? :evil:". So the charges against MR apply to BR too, sometimes in greater measure.

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Originally Posted by Nerd

Dialogues in thaLapthi are one of his best, if not THE best. Even in dil se (one of his less acclaimed works), the dialogues were top-notch. I was not very impressed with the dialogues in his latest guru though.

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I like the dialogues in ThalApathi but not the artificially laconic "yEn / dEva" but the other ones.
Most importantly the ordinary lines are made to stand out by amazing delivery and intonation (thappu paNNAn adichEn......pOyittAn :clap:). That is the film dialogue for you. Not quotable quotes that mean weighty things outside contexts too. But lines that make you feel the character. That's the mark of good direction. You really feel it when MAdhavan says "unakku velai EdhudA kaNNu?" in Kannathil MuthamittAl.

I consider 16 vayathinilE a landmark and BR the biggest pathbreaker. His contribution to Tamil storytelling is historic. But Unlike either kannannn or Nerd I am not able to say for sure that I prefer BR to MR, simply because of the complete lack of consistency in BR's filmography. BR lost it long back. In fact, I'd consider the long speeches by VijayakumAr atypical of BR style. But considering he's made half a dozen dumb films after that I am no longer sure what is typical BR ? Do I just pick out his early good movies and forget he made Thamizhchelvan,Captain MagaL, eera nilam ?

If MR disappoints me, that's because, cliched as it sounds I expect much. Was disappointed with Aayitha Ezuthu but I'd still call it a pretty noble attempt. Naive, yes. Bad, definitely not. Haven't seen Guru yet. But I am sure I will. Very likely to watch Lajjo too. But am not interested in the new BR-Nana PatEkar film or BR's dream project Kutraparambarai. The guy is a perungAya dabbA.

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Originally Posted by thimuru

selva

what a dialogue that is :clap: in ur sign!

and remember the scene when kalaingar says "thamizh muthanmaya irukanum etc"....lal replies with "yelllaarum nalla irukanum.....saapidillama yaarum kashtapadakoodadhu"

:clap:

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Indeed Vikki. I love some of the dialogues in "IruvaR" very much. I still remember the dialogue that you have mentioned. When PrakaashRaj speaks about love towards language, policy etc LAL simply replies his inner desire. "Yellaaarum nalla irukanum.. saapidaaama yaarum kashtapadakoodaadhu". I simply love that sequence very much. :clap:
Credit goes to MANI and Suhashini (dialogues).

I wouldn't say that IRUVAR was a classic now. (after having watched teh movie more than 20 times). But it has lot of scenes that make you sit and watch it for 3 hours continously. The "Feel" that it provides is simply superb.

I love "Agni Natchathiram" as well. :clap: I have copies of both these movies. I have watched both of them many times. :)

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Originally Posted by MADDY

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Originally Posted by Saamy

yes he lives in alwarpet, chennai, tamilnadu, india.

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i asked, is he hyped by tamil media, tamil ppl. also?? :D .....i know north media go over the roof in appreciating him....

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look....tamil media had been prasing for decades...he was full of praises....so when he makes a movie here with his old style how will it impress!

whats the difference between love he showed in mouna ragam,agni natchathiram upto surya-love sequance in aayudha ezhuthu?

20 varushama ore maadhiri making paathu inga makalukku bore adichu pochu....its cute...OK....but in all movies???


avaru style-a paathu paathu bore adichu pochu....but for northies its new

infact tamil people and media has praised him a lot!

those hindi wallahs gave him only 60-70% opening....in chennai it got 100% opening...chumma thulla koodadhu

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Originally Posted by thinkfloyd

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Originally Posted by MADDY

yaenpa kannungala - PR,Kannan,Thinkfloyd,great,Thimuru - ippadi round katti maniratnatha thaakkareengale........avaru hindi-la dhaane padam eduthaaru......mannichi vittudunga..... :cry:

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Now this is getting irritating. You seem to take every issue personally. ARR, Kamal, Gautham, Mani....
Pl read Prabhu's post again mine too. How does it matter whether Mani makes a film in Hindi or Tulu??? You are hell bent on slotting people under one category according to your whim and fancy. Where is the Tamil vs Hindi thing here you seem very eager to create?
I said i didn't find Guru impressive at all and that he has made better films than this. The forum is about discussing what we like or what we don't like in films and this thread is about Mani's new releases. Where's the Tamil Hindi connection here? If you disagree with my points or Kannan's please state so and respond to the issues instead of making it a regional, linguistic or personal issue.

BTW, what makes you think 'we' shouldn't comment on Mani's films because "avaru Hindi la dhaane padam edukkararu"?? Kuthagaikku eduthirukeengala?

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thinkfloyd, the "microscopic" analysis carried out here of Mani's faults is pretty irritating..........we all know that the sensilbilities should be a bit low when movies are made in hindi.......i agree with most of points on Iruvar which is a tamil film and which was a pretty lack lustre film.......thats wat i meant here......i dunno y u r jumping on me like this??? :? .....i never meant to cause any linguistic or regional fight here......

what i mean to say is, Mani has done many mistakes but it irritates me to the core when his mistakes are pointed in a never-seen-before-zeal and enthusiasm......

btw, i'm quitting, i cant do justice to my maniratnam support this way (working 14 hrs/day in the office :evil: ).....if any maniratnam fan cares to answer these "mountains of accusations" on him, they'll have my heartiest congratulations...... :x

Relax Maddy,
This is getting recursive :)
I'm not jumping on you. On the contrary, my point is that you should NOT think 'we' are jumping on you or Mani or ARR. You seem to think 'we' are against them and Hindi or whatever.
I never 'bashed' Mani, as you say. Just had some criticisms. That's it.
Peace