Ilaiyaraaja - The Singer

Probably some people here are getting mislead when we say Raaja Songs are film & Situation specific and they won't fit into any other movie. I too reiterate the same. A song when considered in its totality comprising of its tune, orchestration, pattern, structure, voice, emotions, the lead actors, the directors senstivity, the narrative style et all, is very much film specific and Situation specific IMHO. There are NO Generic songs from IR Please! A Case in point is his Sangathil Paadatha Kavithai and its 7 Versions.
From all my observation of Raaja and his music for cinema I have come to understand that he considers all these things while composing a song either knowingly or unknowingly. When the Permutations Differs The music also differs. A Rajni Song in a SPM movie versus a A Rajashekar movie versus a Manirathanam movie will be different. The same Director and Actor when combines for a different plot the music adapts to the new 'System'. A deeper study into this with regards to the Tune, Raaga, Orshestation, nuances etc will shed more light on this and establish how every song of Raaja is unique and cannot be plugged into any other movie just like that.
Raaja musicla ippadi pala Research ideas irukku athula ithuvum onnu . I hope Violin vicky is reading this :)

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Originally Posted by crajkumar_be

Naan Kadavul had 2 songs which were composed for a different film/album - "Amma Un Pillai" and "Pichai Paathiram" which is what my point is

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Disgaree. Orchestartion has been changed for both songs to suit the new plot and scenario. Appadiye Thooki Plugin pannala Raaja. Listen carefully!

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Originally Posted by crajkumar_be

Disagree. There is no reason why it cannot fit into any other movie with a similar situation .

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Similar Situation illa 'same' situation irunthathaan suit aagum. :) A song which tries to explore the 'Yekkam' of a husband who is married to an unloving woman. Athukku antha padatha yaarvathu remake thaan pannanum. :D

Also Because It wont suit any other actor apart from Mohan or Murali and may be little bit of paavmana 'Kaarthick'. This type of melancholy is very much 'Mohan' Specific and since he was a part of Mouna Raagam this can be termed as Mounaraagam specific too. Yes it would've fitted in some other movie if Murali was there!

Case Study 1: for you > Compare the music and structure of 'Pottu vaitha' from Ithayam and try to juxtapose these two songs.

Case Study 2: for me > Your proposal of 2 songs suitable for interchange (Not much of commonalities apart from 'Situation' - Hope you get this) and I will try to establish how they cannot be :)

rajasaranam :clap:

what i wanted to reply, you did it in a very apt fashion!

but i differ on one point though - IR has indeed given several generic songs throughout his career - most of his duets are generic - 'perai sollava', 'uravenum pudhiya vaanil', etc for starters; or even 'valai osai' - though each of them would be in a league of their own in the creativity index!!

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Originally Posted by rajasaranam

... A song when considered in its totality comprising of its tune, orchestration, pattern, structure, voice, emotions, the lead actors, the directors senstivity, the narrative style et all, is very much film specific and Situation specific IMHO....

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rs sir, did you miss LYRICS in this list of attributes ? I think it should be there. This is probably one of the areas of conflict of IR with certain lyrcist(s). He does not want them to give generic lines. Recent albums of Azhagar Malai, Valmiki songs are a case in point. We can pretty much get the storyline listening to the songs. Or even with mouna raagam "manRam vandha thenRalukku, mangam vara nenjam illaiyo" is pretty telling of an unwilling woman in a marriage.
I would not fight to my last tooth and nail about this but it should be pretty obvious "composing to the situation" has been the cornerstone of IR's professional, creative and even business strategy. I say business strategy because this is the only way he can provide variety and survive for long. Please dont argue that storylines do not provide variety. Th strategy is if a storyline is unique enough to be made into a movie, the compositions to the situations in this movie have to be unique as well. And btw, this is not a new thing, he just aggressively followed the strategy of the masters before him. Quite a few pages have been written here about how MGR drives the lyricist and MDs hard on this. Apparently, it took a lot of tries before he accepted, "adho andha paravai pOla vaazha vEndum, idho indha alaigal pOla aada vEndum" for a song to be picturized on a ship at sea. (With this fine example, it should be clear how bad the current film song situation has fallen from the high standards of yesteryears. It is high time, we stop pretending that we are watching a movie but a bunch of "music videos" strung together.)

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Originally Posted by kiru

It is high time, we stop pretending that we are watching a movie but a bunch of "music videos" strung together

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Because I watch almost all TF only on DVD, it's either of the "songs-only" mode or "skip-every-song" mode :-)

However, recently I thoroughly enjoyed the 'lEsAppaRakkudhu manasu' on VKK. There are still people who want to tell / move the story in songs. All hope is not lost :-)

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Originally Posted by app_engine

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Originally Posted by kiru

It is high time, we stop pretending that we are watching a movie but a bunch of "music videos" strung together

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Because I watch almost all TF only on DVD, it's either of the "songs-only" mode or "skip-every-song" mode :-)

However, recently I thoroughly enjoyed the 'lEsAppaRakkudhu manasu' on VKK. There are still people who want to tell / move the story in songs. All hope is not lost :-)

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I guess you found the code bad and refactored it yourself :-) But why cant they write good code in the first place (programmers here will understand this funny (I think) analogy). (VKK ? - my wife might like to watch it)

digression
kiru, VKK is "veNNilA kabadik kuzhu" - music by some first timer and I liked this song (and the movie overall).

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Originally Posted by rajasaranam

Disgaree. Orchestartion has been changed for both songs to suit the new plot and scenario. Appadiye Thooki Plugin pannala Raaja. Listen carefully!

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I'd like to see it more as a matter of detail. The general point still holds good.
What's your take on the swap in Nayagan?

I think you (we) have a mental map regarding the song being Mohan specific, Murali specific etc because we have heard the song and made the assocuation. Its fixed in our minds. Adhu vera vishayam.

.

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Originally Posted by rajasaranam

Case Study 1: for you > Compare the music and structure of 'Pottu vaitha' from Ithayam and try to juxtapose these two songs.

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Why can't it work is my question. Also, the tune of "Nilave Va" would have worked for "Pottu Vaitha". Its just that in "P.V", the orchestration is minimalistic to depict the impromptu stage gig.
The music can convey the longing of a man for woman's love (ivaru sollave maattaaru) as well as the feelings of a married man who is aching for his wife's love. Musically, it is difficult to restrict or tightly couple a composition to either situation. As i said, in my opinion, its not a one-one rigid mapping. A melancholy solo violin/cello piece can convey so many emotions based on the listener's nature, mood and context. It is difficult to map it rigidly to a single situation.
OK, add layers of orchestration and still the universe is too vast to just map a piece of music to one single context.
Neengale konja naal munnadi Braveheart visuals with Aboorva Sagodharargal "mother theme" youtube post pannirundheengale? :)
Ironically, enakku avvalava ottala, because in my mind the Aboorva Sagodharargal visuals are absolutely nailed in and transfixed in mind. Still, i wouldn't have a problem with that music working for you when heard with the viduals of Braveheart, or any other emotionally powerful scene for that matter - see, that's my point. I assume you wouldn't exclude this example because its a BGM and we are discussing songs.

Of course, i'm not saying that all the compositions are generic.
I would say, a song like "Unnai Naan Ariven" (Guna) would be difficult to map to any other film, because of the way it plays out and is structured - a consoling, comforting lullaby with the warmth of a mother's bosom, an aalaap, a folk piece etc all establishing the backdrop and the events unfolding there. The transition is magical and its almost like the music director has given a bound script for the director/cinematographer/editor with his music (a chicken-egg story because, in the first place, Kamal must have done a terrific job of narrating this and getting this masterpiece from IR :) ). At least enakku situation/film thonala.. Depends on how unique the situation is and how well the MD has captured the background, context, details etc..

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Originally Posted by rajasaranam

Case Study 2: for me > Your proposal of 2 songs suitable for interchange (Not much of commonalities apart from 'Situation' - Hope you get this) and I will try to establish how they cannot be :)

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Originally Posted by irir

but i differ on one point though - IR has indeed given several generic songs throughout his career - most of his duets are generic

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Neraya examples irukku.

Seri, oru example, "Oho Megam vandhadhe" and "Vaan Megam"

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Originally Posted by crajkumar_be

Seri, oru example, "Oho Megam vandhadhe" and "Vaan Megam"

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gud ejjample :-)

I would add 'AththAdi ammAdi' of IT to these two :-)

Brief stopover from forced exile:

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Originally Posted by Bala_CR

Kamal must have done a terrific job of narrating this and getting this masterpiece from IR

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Why speculate? You surely have heard Guna Cassette?

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Originally Posted by (Not verbatim)

Kamal: Abirami-nnu peru vekkalAmnu irukkEn Raja
Santhanabarathy: Soopper peruNNE, ladies sentiment pichikkum
Raja: Kadhai hero-va suthi varudhe Kamal. GuNAnnu vekkalAmE, thavira tamizhnattula apdi vechA dhaane reach aagum
santhanabarathy: Amama, idhuvum correct dhaNNE, GuNA-nE vechuralAM, Soopper pEruNNE

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S. Barathy was the director of the movie:lol:

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Originally Posted by (Not verbatim)

Kamal: Hyderabad-la whorehouse-la aarambikkarOM. ellorum vandhu poyitturkkanga. classical performance nadandhutturuku. GuNA thoongAma adam pidikkaran etc...avanuku our friend, a lady in the house, lullaby paadarA..
S.Barathy: Jing-chak
Raja: (2 Sec pause, I mean 2 sec.'s!) starts humming unnai naan arivEn tune
S.Barathy: aha, jing-chak
Kamal:(interrupts): Indha ghazal sound, fan suthara sound apdiye merge aayi paattu...
S.Barathy: jing-chak
Raja:(cuts him short) adhellAm paarthukkalAm
S.Barathy: Jing-chak

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Andha fan satham rhythm-la merge aaguradhlerundhu ellam kamal kEttu vaangi irukkAr. Those who say director doesnt matter to Raja should note this point

NOTE: office-la naan kooda S.barathy maadhiri dhaan so avarai naan kindaL paNNala - I can fully empathise with him.

:lol:

Plum,

I can empathize with you. Your problem, if you are in a typical office situation, would be that unlike S.Bharathy, you may be surrounded by more S.Barathys and not by Kamal and Raja :lol:

I can understand.

Quite recently, encircled in the cubicle, fellow coolies kudified, and raved about "Transformers", and turned to see what I made of it, "Megan fox super-a irundhaanga" Always take an extra pair of kid-glove to office. :notworthy:

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Originally Posted by crajkumar_be

Seri, oru example, "Oho Megam vandhadhe" and "Vaan Megam"

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:)
Ethirpaartha paatu ithuthaan. 5000 pattula sattuna nyabagathukku intha rendu pattu mattum thaan varum.
Detail badhil later. This is just to Add my 'smiley' and few points as these two songs are the ones which any Raaja fan will find very similar instantly.
... And I agree these two songs are interchangeable. Revathyum antha thullalum characterisation and situation 99% othu poguthey rendu pattukkum. I said about situation similarity without any other commanalities. Lets give another try.

Enjoying the discussion :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by app_engine

digression
kiru, VKK is "veNNilA kabadik kuzhu" - music by some first timer and I liked this song (and the movie overall).

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Music is by Selvaganesh s/o ghatam player Vikku Vinayakram

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Originally Posted by rajasaranam

Revathyum antha thullalum characterisation and situation 99% othu poguthey rendu pattukkum.

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That is my point - that situations are usually repeating patterns. Neenga adhaye justification-a solreengale :)
"Thulli kudhikkum heroine introduction" with or without rain.
Many songs/situations are similarly generic and hence paattum generic-a dhaane irukkum. Thats not Raaja's fault...

Also, i disagree that Revathy is a factor here (i agree to an extent if its like Rajini, Kamal, Ramarajan etc.. i mean there is a significant distinctness in various factors between each of them but actresses seldom had the room or identity in Tamil films so as to warrant a distinct type of score)

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Originally Posted by rajasaranam

I said about situation similarity without any other commanalities. Lets give another try.

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Oh, indha condition sollirundheenga illa... Though my last example would be valid enough, fine, lets do a subset of that - trying to interchange songs in which only the situation is similar (director/actor being different)...
konjam yosikka vendirukku! Soozhal correct a irukkumbodhu post panren, later today

In the wake of the ongoing discussion, let me just recycle a comment I made about one of the BGM pieces from 'idhayaththaith thirudAdhE' on Suresh's Background Score blog recently,

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How an already composed masterpiece was so wonderfully channelled as the BGM for a wholly unrelated sequence is amazing, of course, but also a bit disconcerting if you are into the whole thing about art being an expression of human emotions.

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Related reading: Schopenhauer's aesthetics

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Originally Posted by crajkumar_be

What's your take on the swap in Nayagan?

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I had been trying to dissect the songs from Nayagan in my mind much earlier to this discussion. I came to understand that When the starting Aalaap of the song 'thenpaandi cheemayile' ends if you start off with 'Nila athu vaanathu mela' in a slower tempo it fits perfectly and would've been wonderful too. similarly after the latino styled introduction to 'Nila Athu' if we start off with 'Thenpaandi' in a faster tempo it would've worked too. But they woulve never worked if the swap was without these subtle changes made to the Tempo, Orchestration and the nuances. athu thaan ennoda pointe!

Thirumba solraen We cannot take a song of Raaja just like that and pluggin it into any other 'similar' situation . 99-100% match aaganum illeana it wont work out. ARR'oda Doli Sajake rakhna songsa eduthu 'Jodi'la potta mathiri! (Sandaikku varatheengappa oru examplekaaga solraen). Raaja himself wont agree for that. He has to know exactly what is happening on screen for those songs. Even if there is a mild variation to the 'situation' he will re-do the orchestration and tweak the tune to suit the new 'mood'. We can check on the numerous re-cycled /Re-Hashed songs of his done by himself to substantiate this. He doesnt do it because he wants to show he is 'better' or 'different'. He does it because he wants his songs to convey the 'mood' / 'emotion' of the characters and do justice to the narrative. He creates a 'Storyboard' for all his songs in his mind and compose music for that storyboard. That is the reason we can see visuals emanating within us when we read his music.

In the whole of his career he has allowed songs 'As is' to be re-used in very few cases. Payanangal Mudivathillai was one such case.

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Originally Posted by crajkumar_be

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Originally Posted by rajasaranam

Case Study 1: for you > Compare the music and structure of 'Pottu vaitha' from Ithayam and try to juxtapose these two songs.

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Q.Why can't it work is my question.
Also, the tune of "Nilave Va" would have worked for "Pottu Vaitha".
A. Its just that in "P.V", the orchestration is minimalistic to depict the impromptu stage gig.

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Atheppadeenga Kelviyum Naane Badhilum Naanennu irukreenga :) Ithathaane naangalum sollittu irukom!

irir,

My Arguement is for maximum cases. Exemptions are there definitely. But When we are trying to understand Raaja the Composer, lets get it right. Otherwise we will get mislead from the learning.

Kiru,

Yes. I missed out on the Lyrics part. That is also one of the major attributes which should convey my points better. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by crajkumar_be

I'd like to see it more as a matter of detail. The general point still holds good.

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I've not yet dissected Matha un kovilil. But Tried to Dissect 'Bitchai Paathiram' sometime back.
Questions I posed were.
Why didnt Raaja himself sing the song?
Why Was the Orchestration tweaked a bit?
and not to miss out the sensibility of the lyrics that kiru pointed out why did he change 'Naan oru bitchai paathiram' to 'Yaam oru bitchai Pathiram' at a specific instant?

After these changes does the song Evoke 'Devotion'/'Divinity'/'Surrender' Or 'Sympathy'/'Empathy' Or Totally something else now?

If we find out the answers then we are on the right track. I've got close to the answers :)

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Originally Posted by crajkumar_be

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Originally Posted by rajasaranam

Revathyum antha thullalum characterisation and situation 99% othu poguthey rendu pattukkum.

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That is my point - that situations are usually repeating patterns. Neenga adhaye justification-a solreengale :)

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Athuthaan illa. Intha mathiri completely matching songs are very limited. When it mis-matches even slightly, though the situation is Generic Raaja Changes the color of the song.

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Originally Posted by rajasaranam

Atheppadeenga Kelviyum Naane Badhilum Naanennu irukreenga :) Ithathaane naangalum sollittu irukom!

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Meaning to say P.V would have worked for "N.V" and the tune of N.V would have worked for the former with just the orchestration being a 'little bit' excessive. The frugal orchestration in P.V wouldn't hurt the situation if placed in Mouna Ragam.
See, why this fixation with interchange?
My point is this: many sad/love/folk/mother songs etc will work as a sad song in different movies. It doesn't necessarily mean there will always be a two way interchange.

Good points/kostins on Pichai Paathiram :thumbsup: I want to take lyrics out of the equation for obvious reasons, though. Let me listen to it again :)

The way the discussion going now, I can understand one thing: Nobody wants to discuss "IR - The Singer".

As a singer he is just worth that much!!

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Originally Posted by crajkumar_be

My point is this: many sad/love/folk/mother songs etc will work as a sad song in different movies. It doesn't necessarily mean there will always be a two way interchange.

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Lets try dissecting Mother Songs First. What you are trying to say is the following songs can be interchanged 'AS IS' in to any other song situation:
Naanaga naan illai thaaye
Amma Endrealaikaatha
Amma nee sumantha pillai
Ammanna summa illada
petha manasu pithathilum
Pethu eduthavathaan
en thayenum kovilai
sontham endru sonnavale aatha
Madavilake Magarasi
Amma Thaye thayamma
Amamamma unnai pole oru theivam

If we see on a larger perspective we may think these songs can be interchanged or plugged in to the other situation. But when you listen to orchestration and the minute details in these songs. They cannot be done so will be the understanding. you cannot Replace any other song with 'Amma Endralaikaatha'(It has a bit of Sophistication compared to the rawness in a Ramarajan song) or 'Naanaga naanillai'. ('Antha Keezhvaanile oli vanthathu'va arthapaduthra mathiri orchestrationa vera enga kondu poi plugin pannuveenga?)

But Yes few Ramarajan songs can be plugged in 'AS IS' into any other movie, For all the 30 movies he has acted, whoever may be the director, there was literally no change in the storyline, characterisation, narrative style...Ada Dress kooda maathala avaru. Then it is pretty much obvious that Raaja too will not change his music.

I think the confusion starts only from here. Ada ithellam 'Generic' Songsthaane. Raaja has done so many songs like this, then he is a generic composer too is the conclusion we try to arrive at. Apdi ellam simplify panna mudiyaathu avar musica. His music will always try to convey for a situation in sync with all other factors (Dir, Actor, Story Etc.) put together.

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Originally Posted by genesis

The way the discussion going now, I can understand one thing: Nobody wants to discuss "IR - The Singer".

As a singer he is just worth that much!!

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Thanks. You are a Loser :lol:

RS, another case study could be:

1) Oru sudar iru sudar - Rajavin Parvayile
2) Malai kovil vaasalil - Veera

1st tune was given by IR for Veera and got rejected by the Director. It was for a Rajini movie. He used the tune for a Vijay song (Rajavin Parvayile).

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Originally Posted by crvenky

RS, another case study could be:

1) Oru sudar iru sudar - Rajavin Parvayile
2) Malai kovil vaasalil - Veera

1st tune was given by IR for Veera and got rejected by the Director. It was for a Rajini movie. He used the tune for a Vijay song (Rajavin Parvayile).

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I was always wondering why these two songs sound very similar :)

Generally whenever Raja sings a version of a song, I end up liking his version a lot even if the other singer is a veteran singer. One song where I was really surprised by the singer sing the same version of the song Raja sang and sang it as well is Mahathi in 'Kadha Jathi'. The song be "Enna Marandalum'. Superb song and Plum had earlier written about Mahathi's raw vocals adding charm to this song. An excellent effort by her. Not sure why she did not sing too much under Raja.

அனைவருக்கும் வணக்கம் :)

இசைஞானி பாடிய முதல் இணைந்திசைப் பாடல் எதுவெனத் தெரியவேண்டும்.

1. தென்னமரத்துல தென்றலடிக்குது [பி.சுசீலா] - லக்ஷ்மி
2. சாமக்கோழி ஏன் கூவுதம்மா [எஸ்.பி.ஷைலஜா] - பொண்ணு ஊருக்கு புதுசு

( இவை இரண்டில் ஒன்றாக இல்லாமல் வேறொன்றாகவும் இருக்கலாம்.) உதவுங்கள்

நன்றி :)

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Originally Posted by disk.box

அனைவருக்கும் வணக்கம் :)

இசைஞானி பாடிய முதல் இணைந்திசைப் பாடல் எதுவெனத் தெரியவேண்டும்.

1. தென்னமரத்துல தென்றலடிக்குது [பி.சுசீலா] - லக்ஷ்மி
2. சாமக்கோழி ஏன் கூவுதம்மா [எஸ்.பி.ஷைலஜா] - பொண்ணு ஊருக்கு புதுசு

( இவை இரண்டில் ஒன்றாக இல்லாமல் வேறொன்றாகவும் இருக்கலாம்.) உதவுங்கள்

நன்றி :)

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Disk: ippadInnA 'duet' song-A?

ஆம் மதிப்பிற்குரிய ப்ரியா அவர்களே!

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Originally Posted by disk.box

அனைவருக்கும் வணக்கம் :)

இசைஞானி பாடிய முதல் இணைந்திசைப் பாடல் எதுவெனத் தெரியவேண்டும்.

1. தென்னமரத்துல தென்றலடிக்குது [பி.சுசீலா] - லக்ஷ்மி
2. சாமக்கோழி ஏன் கூவுதம்மா [எஸ்.பி.ஷைலஜா] - பொண்ணு ஊருக்கு புதுசு

( இவை இரண்டில் ஒன்றாக இல்லாமல் வேறொன்றாகவும் இருக்கலாம்.) உதவுங்கள்

நன்றி :)

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Mudhal duet padal - Thenna marathula thendral

நன்றி மற்றும் நன்றி மதிப்பிற்குரிய டிவி சங்கர் அவர்களே! :)

அந்த இரு திரைக்காவியங்களும் ஒரே ஆண்டில் வெளிவந்திருப்பதால் இந்தக் குழப்பம்.

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Originally Posted by disk.box

நன்றி மற்றும் நன்றி மதிப்பிற்குரிய டிவி சங்கர் அவர்களே! :)

அந்த இரு திரைக்காவியங்களும் ஒரே ஆண்டில் வெளிவந்திருப்பதால் இந்தக் குழப்பம்.

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பொண்ணு ஊருக்குப்புதுசு "காவியமா"? :lol:

IR Music pottal athu Thiraikaaviyamthaan!!! ':)'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYHln...eature=related

Nobody could have sung this better. :lol:.

Singara cheemaiyilae - NInaivu Chinnam - IR

Very Nice song. I like his Expressions in this song..........

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/album.ph...R00431&lang=en

Swarnalatha's humming

IR's rendition -

tune - makes me weeping........ whenever hearing this song.......

SOULFUL Compostiion.. Orchestration.. Soulful Renditiion.....


Paradi kiliyae - Nangal - IR

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/album.ph...R00398&lang=en

Raja's latest song from Gayam - 2 is outstanding. 'kalagane kannullo' has such a superb feel which only Raja could have brought out. I was one of those who initially said that this could possibly have been given to Vijay Yesudas. I think which Vijay could have done a decent job after repeated hearings can't think anyone doing justice to this song!!!

Japanil Kalyanaraman - Kaathal Un Leelaiya
Love this song very much. Young IR's voice very nice to hear. I like IR's voice at those times, it was totally different and never heard before feeling.

The second interlude has beautiful flute with guitar playing as a counterpoint?

The way he connects the last line of charanam to pallavi is seamless, as if this is the only way (rule) to go. Please watch this last line in charanam.
"Kangal rendum kaaman kulam intha kaathal Un leelaiya"

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/album.php?ALBID=ALBIRR00222

Is this the title song of the movie? I don't remember seeing in the film.

மைனா மைனா மாமன் பிடிச்ச மைனா.....முரளி mouthorgan லே tune வாசிச்சுண்டு ரேவதியை துரத்தறதுதான் வேலை...
the group song மைனா மைனா மாமன் பிடிச்ச மைனா...ஸ்ரீ.இளையராஜா's mixture of scotish + irish violin , guitar interlude ringing in my ears whole day .

பகல் நிலவு ...80s இளையராஜா rules forever!

வினதா

Quote:

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Originally Posted by baroque

பகல் நிலவு ...80s இளையராஜா rules forever!

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பூமாலையே, தோள் சேர வா

Do I need to say more?

One of the best songs in IR's voice ever...