App, some bosses are more difficult than sakhadharmini. Currently I am going through one so I vehemently disagree
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App, some bosses are more difficult than sakhadharmini. Currently I am going through one so I vehemently disagree
Bosses, in most cases, especially women, are a perennial pain in the wrong places: sAgA-adharminIs.
nanRi, Divine22!
Plum & KV :lol:
(BTW, bosses change, like the change I had last month for the better...well, even we can decide to change the boss, in many situations...OTOH, pathni is for life and I better comply with the requirements :wink:)
#184 பட்டுக்கன்னம் தொட்டுக்கொள்ள ஒட்டிக்கொள்ளும்
(காக்கிச்சட்டை, 1985 , சுசீலாவுடன்)
groucho recently responded to request of hubbers (Plum, me) to post his Kamal analysis which is quite interesting. Especially the MGR-vArisu part and this portion is directly relevant to our songs 184-188 :
My personal take on Kamal's journey :Quote:
Originally Posted by groucho
He started off as Gemini's kid (Kalathur KaNNamma / pArthAl pasi theerum) and pretty much shaping as his 'vArisu' (kAdhal mannan v/s kadhal iLavarasan) until early seventies - doing either lover boy-isms or manmadha leelai's in crowded movies (not counting Malayalam ones). Or neechchal theriyAtha paridhAbam case in moonRu mudichchu, generally seeking romance or anudhAbam.
Though 16 V too started off in that 'anudhAbam' mode, thanks to his heavily drawing inspiration from NT (who too had a few in a similar 'handicap-anudhAbam' mode in the past) and the radically different setting from his prior ventures, he got a huge patti-thotti reach as a kadhAnayakan at last! So, 16V of Kamal proved him to be the NT-vArisu :-) Well, he went on to do some terrific, image-breaking, varied roles in the next few years to be a actor / star on his own (sigappu rOjAkkaL, avaL appadiththAn, marO charitra, for e.g. - I don't think there was any vArisu business in those biggies).
Alas, there came this SKV and he was in the MGR-mode for a few years in TF, that was, till nAyakan. (Ofcourse the great sAgarasangamam / swAthi muthyam happened in TeF during that time period. It was reported that KH didn't want swAthimuthyam to be dubbed in TF and disturb his effort to build a macho image there...per gossips, he was even upset with SPB for 'dubbing').
Well, this "uniform" movie was from that period in which KH was magnanimous to give a good deal of space to Satyaraj (even imitating him of the adukkuththodar, 'police-police'). Rajasekar possibly made this movie per RMV specs (Sathya movies) and together they made a MGR-JJ movie with KH-ambi chEchi :-) This song strongly reminds me of paruvam enathu pAdal (Ayirathil oruvan) and both have been playing in my mind during the weekend - though there're no similarities in tune or orchestration - just the "overall feel" & PS factor.
That way, 'pattukkannam' is an IR song for MGR-JJ :-) While JJ excels in dance, chEchi is the opposite. Ofcourse, KH is a great dancer and as Venkkiram mentions in the KH thread in the TF section, he fits into any "foreign" costume as good as or better than MGR.
While this song totally belongs to PS (what a singing, the way she streches the last syllable of kannam, koLLa, koLLum - sweeeet), SPB has his inimitable laughter at the end of the first saraNam which sweetly syncs with the thALam! IR was in a roller-coaster mode with terrific orchestration / rhythm arrangement for this song that had a killer of a tune! One can never get tired of listening to this number!
Grouch, Wonderful recap of all Kamal films with your master touch, with all details. App, your summarization was very cute.
Felt like I was going to back to that period and coming all the way to present. Thank you! :D
I vaguely remember not getting tickets in Devi/Sathyam and rushed all the way to Albert in Egmore, I think, and finally managed to get tickets. We weren't so impressed overall with the movie when we came out, except for the songs, Kamal, Ambika, Madhavi and Sathyaraj.
#185 வானிலே தேனிலா ஆடுதே பாடுதே
வானம்பாடி ஆகலாமா?
(காக்கிச்சட்டை, 1985 , ஜானகியுடன்)
My most fav song from this album at the time of arrival :-) Though still a strong favourite, pattukkannam has overtaken this over the years. What a terrific shift from pallavi to saraNam in this song! And the rhythm arrangement for the pallavi! And the variations in the strings thru out the song! And the sweet humming in the second interlude with the drummer having a field day with his "dishes" (a big fav for me in such rAsA songs)! And the thuLLal tune and equally jumpy singing by my fav pair!
This song is another example of what comes out of IR's mind when he was probably on a very jolly, happy, carefree mood! Actually the whole album is such a sweet treat and I have a strong suspicion that either thangamagan or kAkkichchattai got some numbers that rAsA composed for MGR's 'unnai vida mAttEn' (There was front page news report in dinathanthi, some pictures of IR-MGR together, MV reportedly singing a song etc but the project never took off as MGR continued as CM till the end of his life, but these two Sathya movies' songs had strong MGR-flavour IMO).
There is no doubt, however, that MGR couldn't have given any inputs to these Sathya movies projects, definitely not kAkkichchattai as he was very sick by then. (I remember very clearly the tragedy striking both MGR & Indira in the same month of Oct 1984. I had an "inplant-training" in the BHEL's EDP at that time. I don't remember how I managed to get in there but it was quite an interesting experience with those "refrigerator-like" mainframe computer centers with tons of perforated papers getting printed by line printers. We wrote some COBOL programs though it wasn't in our regular syllabus and had some really nice time. It was the last day of our IPT that we had to walk back to hostel from BHEL because Indira got killed and there were no buses. The same night I had to go to Palayankottai for a personal function and a hostelmate dropped me off in cycle to Tiruverumbur Rly station. Took a local train to TPJ from there, waited the whole night for the Nellai express that finally came and reached me by almost 24 hours late to the destination getting into some stone-throwing on the way etc...unforgettable moments).
The whole album was a big hit and it was always a big treat to listen to these numbers on buses...
oh..KAKKI SATTAI.
Thanks MS & app_eng.
adadaa....
You boss means it App_eng.
Your girl just wants you to want to be there with her, not really want you to be with herஎல்லாத்தையும் விட்டு விட்டு , weekend பூரா
She is a big girl. She is fine.
Understand, it's the thought , App-eng. மனசால close ஆ இருக்கறது.
weekend பூரா வீட்டுல, மனைவி பின்னாலே hang around பண்ணி Don 't annoy the girl, app_eng.
She is fine.
Your boss means it. This economy, you don't want to risk it.:shaking:
then your girl will be a big problem for you:shaking:
What the hell! you and your Ir kahanies cost my comforts and peace of mind!
புரிஞ்சுதோ
I will return to your song soon...:)
vinatha.
V_S & baroque,
:-)
Now that I've taken care of the backlog, can breathe a little bit before posting the song for today :-)
#186 கண்மணியே பேசு, மௌனம் என்ன கூறு
(காக்கிச்சட்டை, 1985 , ஜானகியுடன்)
The song starts with a terrific, mangaLa shenoy sound and ventures into flute / strings and veeNai before SPB pours honey into our ears. Combined with the sweet tabla accompaniment and SJ humming, the prelude + pallavi alone is a main course meal. Everything that comes after are surplus goodies that keep making one fat. What a richee rich song! This one is a quintessential example of how to make a commercially successful song that is rich is musical quality but without any necessity for extraordinary innovation :wink: Trade mark IR song. For some reason, whenever I hear the recent 'swapnangaL kaNNezhudhiya' for a Sathyan Anthikkad movie, I get reminded of kaNmaNiyE pEsu, enna connectionO theriyalai.
Possibly the most tolerable song on screen as per my memory (no dance business I think and chEchi was not ugly). The most broadcast song as radio stations seemed to love this. Likewise, very popular on buses / teakkadais and audio recorders as well. With the typical tablA-bass-chords combo that could be called signature IR, this song is such a delight for night time listening (headphone & bed).
I remember watching this movie in a big theater in Trichy (Maris?) and it was a big success. Ofcourse I got bored and was feeling bad for Kamal after watching this movie (most other hostelmates who watched with me were more vocal in scolding him). But then, I had no reason to complain because IR had such a sweet array of laddoos for this - that could be enjoyed for years:-) All in the sweet voice of SPB :-)
Any time I hear this song, the instant reminder is the NSB road of 80's - from the main guard gate to thEradi bazaar - the crowded TeppakkuLam area / Saradhas / burma bazaar shops / the phenomenally economical stuff one can shop for / the Chinthamani super market / the Jothis tailoring where my chithappA (chithi's hubby whom I talked about earlier, a music system aficionado) got his safari's done (Virudhu patti-la irundhu inga vandhu thaippAru) / the entrance to malaikkOttai / the upstairs Vasantha Bhavan...all keep coming to mind so brightly! Things kept changing over the years, by 2003 a major portion of the road got annexed by Saradhas and Mangal...there was still some charm in the area but nothing like the 80's IMO...
Wonderful writeup App for Udhayageetham and Kaakki Chattai. One can never get tired of listening to the songs from these albums. Nice perspective on Kamal's early career graph.
nanRi rajkumarc!
kaNmaNiyE pEsu youtube
(Kamal teaching "how to samALichchify an angry GF")
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_CxY36xQrk
vAnilE thEnilA AduthE youtube
(looks like Kochi)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEnK8zbS8xQ
I guess pattukkannam video can be classified as PG-13 material (at least PG stuff- well, many MGR songs were like that anyways)...not posting the link here...
udhaya geetham - Vaali wrote Thene thenpandi meene.
Maane thene should by GA
fantastic job , App _eng ,:thumbsup:
there is no place like சத்திரம் பஸ் stand - மெயின் guard கேட்.
if it is not for her father's பதவி பேராசை , சூழ்ச்சி and பழிக்குப் பழி ,
இலட்சுமி பட்டத்து ராணியா இந்த நுழைவாயில் வழியா பல்லக்குலே வலம் வந்து இருப்பா ..what a heart break ! Heart bleeds man!:cry2:
விஸ்வநாதநாயக்கர் , லக்ஷ்மி காதல் sacrifices , நாயக் dynasty 's contributions to திருச்சி architectural works பற்றி எப்போ பிலிம் எடுக்க போறாங்க?
Suhani Raat Dhal Chuki Na Jaane Tum Kab Aaoge......கண்மணியே பேசு மௌனம் என்ன கூறு?:musicsmile:
ராகம் பஹடி improvisation .
Rafi and பாலா.. evocative voices of the century ! :clap:
Indian cinema music:ty:
I will return back to your thread tonight for the rest of the compositions.
Vinatha.
App, thanks for recalling our conversation and respond to Kamal's piece to our readers here. So kind of you. V_S, all for us hubbers, thanks.
And wow, Kakkichattai, one of my favourite of Kamal's total masala. Seed to liking Sathyaraj planted here, not only me but so many others of our generation. And here's where you guys are going to be totally uncomfortable, the favourite song of mine in this film is not reviewed/revisited yet here. HA! A sexy number that none but only SPB can pull off! Eat that Robert Plant. I am eagerly waiting (therefore building pressure) on your take, app. Jaaaakiratha.....okay, just kidding :razz:, seriously love to know what you and folks surrounding you and their take on it.
Oh yeah poo potta dhavani Grouch. That's SPB on steroids - with even Janaki struggling to catch up.Yeah, the standout song from the album
Yup.
I hope it's not dismissed as sinunggal mununggal song. There's technical brilliance to it that we need to look at it despite the gigantic vocal overshadowing. The jazzy twang, the feel of over-the-edge driving of Aston Martin DB5 at those lonely roads down a Switzerland mountain, and again Raja unleashes James Bond-ish sound that has been sadly been missing the last 22 years in actual Bond films.
yw, groucho!
kaRROrukku senRa idamellAm siRappu :-)
nanRi baroque!
Interesting to see the brief info on historical background of MGG...can you please write some details? My knowledge is zero on this. (Going by the names such as "cantonment, promenade road, west bouleward road, toll gate, main guard gate" etc, I thought it was an East India Company establishment...don't know much about the local warriors associated with the fort...my association with Trichy was / is during & after college days and never cared for the history of the place except the chOzhar kAlam...)
BTW, pooppOtta dAvaNi is a personal favourite as well and it used to fight for top spot with vAnilE during college days (how come rAsA does a lot of special work for munakal songs :shock: For e.g., one of his best-ever-rhythms was for ponmEni)!
However, today's song will be the SPB solo :wink:
#187 நம்ம சிங்காரி சரக்கு நல்ல சரக்கு
(காக்கிச்சட்டை, 1985 )
One of those 100's of dappAnguththu songs that could have possibly taken only a few minutes for IR to compose the mettu. The mettu also gets played out in shenoy in the end. Free usage of shenoy here and there as is the norm with rAsA for such numbers. People still care about this song only because it had Kamal on screen, IMO. Or, may be because SPB gave a lot of extra embellishments ( the way he says kickku -pause -enakku in the middle of the song is fantastic).
Never a personal favourite, despite my awe for the way SPB has delivered this number. Absolutely hated the scene when watching the movie (and never want to revisit on youtube or anywhere).
However, no questions on the hit status of the song - heard everywhere in TN during its time. So, finds a place in this listing exercise. Also, reduces my burden of writing a lot about a song (and a big help today with some work pressure :lol2:)
BTW, Vikram repeated this scene after 2 decades in Samy.
No wonder because Samy is a Hari movie / Kavidhalaya production.
:)
Krishna Devaraya of Vijayanagara Empire appointed Viswanatha Nayaka as Madurai viceroy.
Viswanathan , just like The Great Krishna Devarayar, a great national statesman, App_eng.
He is very loyal to kingdom and he sacrificed his personal life for the welfare of the kingdom.
தன்னோட love & dedication for kingdom 's welfare , தன்னோட தந்தையை - நாகம நாயக்கரை சிறை இட்டு வந்தவர்.
சாளுவ நரசிம்மர் பதவி ஆசையால் தன்னோட தந்தை நாகம நாயக்கரை use பண்ணினவரின் சூழ்ச்சிப் plans defeat பண்ணினார்.
Viswanatha Pandiyar built the தெப்பக்குளம் , Rock fort temple சுற்றி இருக்கற மதில் சுவர் etc..
That entrance was named as Main guard Gate when British ruled us.
mmm.. now you are in love with viswanathan too?:)
நிச்சயமா handsome ஆ இருந்து இருப்பா .. அகத்தின் அழகு முகத்தில் தெரியும்!http://www.mayyam.com/talk/images/sm...icon_smile.gif
லக்ஷ்மி, வினதா என்று இன்னும் எத்தனைப் பெண்களின் மனதை கவர்ந்து இருக்காரோ with his honesty, gentleness, loyalty, bravery, able governance!
vinatha
I will return back tonight to treat myself with this thread 's நாயகன்'s partnership with இளையராஜா , another prominent தெலுங்கு fellow , dazzling in தமிழ் & beyond forever! :-D
thanks, app_eng
vinatha.
nanRi, baroque, for the write-up!
genesis,
:lol2:
baroque/vinatha, thanks for the history lesson. Wasn't there a small ice-cream shop by name Michaels's around that area ? First time I ever saw an ice-cream scoop with spring-action release. Rode in the pillion of my cousin brother's Lambretta scooter from ponmalai railway quarters to malaikkottai as a kid during my summer vacations (very hot, not the right place) to my periamma's place in trichy.
#188 பூப்போட்ட தாவணி
(காக்கிச்சட்டை, 1985 , ஜானகியுடன்)
With a terrific trumpet / chorus / synthetic sounds prelude, this song was instantly catchy when arrived. It was full of thuLLal music, with IR working extra time IMO to pack a number of extra tricks that he always did for his munagal songs. Ofcourse the singer pair made things a lot easier for him (I can't imagine how IR would've LOL'ed at the console when Mano / KSC "sang" sivarAththiri. That MMKR number called for MV or SPB with SJ. The Mr Prayer & Miss Serious combo made it extremely funny sounding, despite the kiLu-kiLu music that IR built for that).
The fact that no Silukku or equivalent got used for dAvaNi gave the song some extra "this thing" at the time of arrival. There was hostel talk that Madhavi was brought-in to do things similar to what she did with Chiranjeevi in a Telugu movie called "kaidi". Some "milk relation" stuff in dance form, it seems, like what she does with Kamal here. I don't think Kamal had any "censor-kodumai" during this time period :wink:
BTW, I didn't get a chance to view that kaidi movie. Actually, I never had a chance to view any Chiranjeevi Telugu movie so far. Have no plans either, after watching two Thamizh movies of him - 47 days & rANuva veeran (both in college audi). Those were enough.
Hmmm, thinking of Telugu movies, the total number of Telugu direct / dubbed movies I've ever watched are only 6 :shock: Sankarabaranam & Meghasandesam - both direct, classics! Sankarabaranam in college audi, thoroughly impressed. Meghasandesam in the Allwyn fridge factory guest house @ Nandalur near Kadappa - and was simply blown away. Classmates on DVD recently, bought it thinking that it was a Malayalam movie but found to be Telugu when played...continued watching. It was ok with a lot of FF.
Except Meghasandesam, no movie did I watch during any of my many trips to Telungu desam. Kannada film experience is even worse, watched only one movie despite 100's of trips to Bangalore. That one too, was by mistake - thinking that it was some other English movie and realized only after it was screened. Couldn't tolerate after half-hour or so and walked out.
Two of the dubbing ones are not difficult to guess - Kamal / IR / KV stuff, one of which we've already discussed in this thread and the other one should come soon. The third one was MR / IR stuff with the 'ever-unhappy-looking' hubby of Amala on screen. How come many such beautiful / talented / top-notch / popular / successful / rich actresses end up as "chinna veedu"s - Savithri, Sridevi, Jayapradha, Hemamalini, Amala for e.g - mystery of Indian film world.
Obviously the most popular / talked about song of this movie at the hostel.
oh.. thanks Kiru.:) veyilaavadhu, mazhai aavadhu... We love that place.
My father worked at Golden Rock, The South Indian Railways, Trichy.
ரயில்வே family passes உண்டு, முன்னாடியே cottage எல்லாம் புக் பண்ணி, எங்கப்பா எங்களை எல்லா இடத்துக்கும் அழைச்சுண்டு போவா!:-D
Good App-eng continues,
though I am stuck in the
rise and fall melody of Vaanile thenilaa.... with strings exuberance, humming & bass guitar, prelude jazzy keys.. forever!
Wow, What a joy!:happydance:
80s Ilayaraja:bluejump: I am digging this visual- IR's photo for his songs!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqTFhEY_FLY
thanks, App_eng... You are THE BEST host ever at tfmpage!
vinatha.
nanRi baroque for your nice words!
With # 188, police uniform is finished...
I'll probably finish up all biggies of this year first - that way, let me do a Rajinikanth movie next, that had 3 SPB numbers :-)
Good for you, App_eng.
Enjoyed roaming around with your friends with a pocket full of money!:)
Vinatha.
app, I love Kamal's dance in Singgari Sarakku. Graceful dappangguttu, I'd say. Also, the lines got censored here and there. Too lazy to highlight.One of the films fault lies here. At one time, Kamal is merrily singing and dancing (and drinking of course), and then suddenly the man gets violent tossing unlit molotov cocktails overturning autorickshaw, Hulk range-la poyiduvaru :lol2:. Antha timelayE we were "What the...".
Thanks for bringing us back to that time, app. We brothers then used to call it Katkitkot (sound the cartoon Transformers make, apparently to our young ears), and Kamal fanaticism was at feverish high.
"The Mr Prayer & Miss Serious combo made it extremely funny sounding" :lol:.
While listening to these songs by SPB and SJ and admire the grace with which they sing and take them to newer unknown heights, it is hard not to compare with other singers and their performances. Even if we accept Mano and Chitra for these kind of situations, imagining 'Poo potta dhavani' or 'Singaari sarakku' is sung by the great singers of today. Many have sweet voices, classically trained and everything, but no one can bring out that sensation what SPB and SJ had brought out. It's all done for us and we are absolutely gifted to listen to these gems 'suda chuda' when the songs got released.
V_S, yes....we were fortunate indeed. Okay, time to visit the other thread, see you there.
*waiting for Params to come and grab the Mano part, and beat the dead snake so hard that it becomes alive again*
பரம் சமீபத்துல வந்த அவன் இவன் படத்தை பார்த்திருப்பார்... "என்னடா இது, இந்த அம்பிகா (சேச்சி) அம்மாவோட ரசிகர்கள் கூடவா சகவாசம் வச்சிருக்கிறோம்" அப்பிடீன்னு பயந்து போய் ஓடி போய்ட்டார். (அப்பு, இது வரைக்கும் பார்க்கலன்னா, நீங்க தயவு செஞ்சு "அவன் இவன்" பார்க்க வேண்டாம். ஒரு மோசமா படத்தை தவிர்த்த மாதிரியும் இருக்கும், நீங்க அம்பிகா சேச்சி மேல வச்சிருக்கிற அபிமானமும் குறையாது)
Eventhough I like "Poo Potta Dhavani" song for it energy and style, I am totally against mukkal, munagal songs - IMO, they are disgusting and insult of femal sexuality. I can not forgive IR/SJ for producing such songs - especially SKV Nila Kayudhu song. I am relly not sure who started this trend. Good relief, it died in late 80s. There are lot of other ways to convey the similar feelings in a song w/o mukkal and mungals. I have 2 examples by the same IR/SPB/SJ/KH combo from the same year.
1) Vanithamani Vanamohini (very much like Poo Potta Dhavani)
2) Meendum Meendum Vaa (Comparable to wonderful "Theendai Enai Theendai" by SPB/Chitra/ARR)
Chitra by choice did not do mukkal munagal songs. IMHO, Chitra is no less compared to SPB/PS/SJ in bringing emotions in songs.
small clarification.. the sanga kaala mukkal of "theendaai " was not by chitra - only the carnatic style singing was by chitra and spb.
for your held opinion against, "mukkal" songs, kindly visit the "erotica" thread and get janma saabalyam and theLivu (enga aalu Burger King kitta irukku ungalukku.. ;-) )
The trend started, I believe with all the Cabaret songs of 70s and ever since the "boldness" quotient increased, like any superior concept that came before, the erotica of TFM also got polluted. At the same time I dont want it to be forecefully sanitized and dripped out of its core emotion by cultural phenyling. Film playback singing is film playback singing - it lives with the context and dies with the same context - romba deeppaa idhai eduthukkappadaadhunnen. Meesik and lyrics are takeaways but not in an extreme generic case.. Eppdi veedu varai uravu paattai contextoda eduthukkaromo - adhe maadhiri thaan "nela kaayudhu" vum..
#189 காந்தி தேசமே, காவல் இல்லையா?
(நான் சிகப்பு மனிதன், 1985 )
I remember posting about this song in the 'last heard' thread sometime back after watching a Visu program on Jaya TV. In that program, its saraNam got so powerfully used to pizhinjify people's emotions on day-to-day troubles. While that was done to get political mileau (which they did get, going by the huge victory during the subsequent elections) and I personally felt this one worked great as a propaganda song at current conditions, I wasn't impressed at all when it originally arrived. Ofcourse, even now I won't compare this with any of MSV/KVM-MGR numbers that had the majestic voice of TMS. SPB had been and will be a "boy" in my mind forever :-)
Actually, rAsA himself didn't do many majestic propaganda / political numbers anyways (an occasional manithA manithA / gAndhi dEsamE notwithstanding). His era had been mostly soft / romantic / sweet-on-ears / human relationships kinds with relatively less focus on political troubles, vaRumaikkodumai and such stuff. Look at even nizhalkaL, supposedly taken to highlight unemployment, ended up having all romantic / sweet stuff:-)
Those odd successful ones that came during this era, like sattam oru iruttaRai , sivappu malli, thaNNeer^2, VNS - all went to other MDs. That MGR wasn't in the field and IR's not-so-great-working-relationship with TMS didn't help either. The net result is a severe lack of 'adhO andhappaRavai' kinds in his kitty, despite the kitty having a huge overall size.
This movie with the "robinhood" "vigilante" etc genre too got mostly romantic, soft & sweet numbers with just this exception. Even this one was a disappointment to me at the time of arrival. It definitely didn't meet the expectations of one whose childhood included running around in the school campus singing 'nenjam uNdu nErmai uNdu' with extra "horse sound" from the tongue :lol: BTW, nenjam uNdu was the first one in my voice ever to get recorded on a media (One day the school HM brought this new wonder to the school , the tape recorder, to the bewilderment of all of us. He demonstrated it to us by recording samples and I was among those to get the chance to sing).
Comparisons apart, this song with its trumpets + shenoy combo mixes excellently the muzhakkam with softer inner emotions. Obviously an IR speciality territory. His talent is unparallelled in making "heart-juice" with instrumental portions, an example of which is in the shenoy portion of interlude. SPB sings with a lot of feel as well which is not unusual. Meets iluppaippoo standards as far as political numbers are concerned :-)