Thank You. I am not a subscriber so I guess I'll rest content with your translation. I'll give it another shot nevertheless. Hope to read more in this thread.
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Thank You. I am not a subscriber so I guess I'll rest content with your translation. I'll give it another shot nevertheless. Hope to read more in this thread.
Dear Prabhu Ram,Quote:
Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram
For your convenience, I reproduce it herebelow :
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewt...=250997#250997
Sorry for the delayed response I was away from the Hub for a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudhaama
Thank you Sudhaama. I have already read this as I have been following the thread from the start. I was reading silently because I had nothing to add.
...
Ramanuja-acharya preached SOCIAL EQUANIMITY...
Discriminatory MANU "DHARMA SASTHRAM" ?..Genuine ?
Vedas & Geetha stipulate COMMUNAL-DIVISIONS?
There are Two sorts of Service to God. according Vedic-sasthras.
...SESHATHWAM (Sevakam in Tamil) =
Direct Service to God... similar to Lakshmana of Ramayana
PAARATHANTHRIYAM (Parhai in Tamil) =
Command-services as ordained by God... similar to Bharatha of Ramayana ... which is preferred by God, more than the other.
Lord Ranganatha of Srirangam advised His Seshawathara Ramanuja and further persuaded him to perform "PARHAI" services on Earth as per HIS COMMANDS...
Whereas Ramanuja relished more on SEVAKAM of direct service to Him and so preferred to continue at Srirangam only ...
... without moving out anywhere else, contrary to his purpose of Reincarnation on Earth... to Emancipate the Humanity.
Lord Ranganatha did not approve his Serviceman Ramanuja's stand and so after waiting for some time He intentionally created a crucial situation as below... practically urging him to quit Chozha Kingdom forthwith
..Vide my Posting in Page:2... dated November 08, 2005... with the Heading as..
Ramanuja AADHISESHAWATHARA proved during Lifetime: Episode-I
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=4854&
postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
Eventually he was left with no other alternative than to quit Chozha dhesam immediately...
Because of the Reasons...
(1) To save his Disciple Kooraththaazhvaan ... who had already reached Chozha King and protracted himself as Ramanuja... with a noble intention to protect his Guru Ramanuja...
(2) Insistance from his disciples... that Ramanuja's life is in danger if he continues anymore at Srirangam whereas his services will be better utlised alongwith the due honour and reverance by the Kings of other regions of the country Bhaaratham, far contrary to the aversion by the Chozha King.
(3) God's wishes cannot be postponed anymore, especially after His ultimatum by Asareeri voice.
So Ramanuja along with a batch of his dedicated Disciples... surreptitiously rushed out of Chozha- Rajyam towards Melnaadu... the present Karnataka,
Ramanuja MINGLED freely with the DOWNTRODDEN
In the course of Pallanquin-Travel .. the convoy had to Night-halt and HIDE at a Farmers Hamlet.... comprising of Harijans / Backward community... exclusively
... Rather the Acharya along with his Team stayed with those so called "Untouchables" of those Monarchy days...
...while he being a Brahmin as well as an Acharya-peetaadhipathi stipulated to be STRICTLY ORTHODOX
But Ramanuja did not feel any aversion nor dejection but felt happy and proud that it was a BLESSING IN DISGUISE... being rare opportunity for him
...to INTERACT WITH DOWNTRODDEN mass of the Society... enabling him to do his best towards their Social- uplift.
So he called for an assembly of all the Inhabitants... to his hut. and discussed.
The Acharya asked the people overall..." Do you ever worship God in any manner or at least go to Temple?"
" Why should we worship God... or go to Temple? We are after all Farmers confined to do our duty on Agriculture only...
...whereas it is you peoples duty to worship God...ON OUR BEHALF TOO...
Ramanuja was stunned to hear such an unexpected reply. and asked back...
" If you mean the duty of Brahmins and Acharyas like me, is supposed to perform Yagas, Yagjnas, Veda-paarayana for the sake of the whole Society,...
.. Well you are correct. But how do you exclude yourself from worshipping God, who is common for all. ?
...Especially the Temples are intended mainly for the COMMONFOLKS like you... at the lowest strata of Society. Then why should you not think and worship God there, at least once a week? ".... asked Ramanuja.
"No, Sami,... we are Untouchables... we fear to pollute the sacred places..
...by which we may add up our sins as also inevitably earn the wrath of God" ... a section of the people said.
Another group said, "We are prepared but NOT ALLOWED TO ENTER the Temple."
Then the Acharya gave a detailed Lecture in a simple Language... conducive enough to the reach of those uneducated simpletons at a low perception capacity.
..and by means of an open-minded dialogue... face to face... convinced them...
...that the God is One... Worshipping Him in any form and method of ones own choice is NOT CONFINED TO ANY ONE OR A FEW COMMUNTIES ONLY...
...but one and all of the Society... individually and collectively as well...
...God is the Supreme-might... the Common- Protector of our Social Prosperity and Life on the whole...
...and so, all have to pray God... at least as a MARK OF GRATITUDE....
And further he assured them that he will ensure the Downtrodden too to be allowed to enter Temples and worship the deities there... as soon as possible.
Accordingly, on reaching his destination Melnaadu, he proposed to the King...after gaining his confidence and reverence.
"Hae Raja, Why should you not allow the Harijans to worship in the temples, at par with other Hindus... ensuring SOCIAL EQUANIMITY?"... asked Ramanuja.
"Swami, if you so command, I have no objection to implement it. But I fear it may result in a persistent Social-Turmoil...
...since the Forward community people will not accept such a sudden BREAK- THROUGH...
...a Gross Violation of Vedic Codes and Hindu Dharma- sasthras" the King replied..
"Oh! ..Wherein such Prohibitory Laws of discrimination have been authenticated in Hindu Scriptures? Hae Raja, arrange for a Scholars- congregation of the Hindu Philosophical experts and Pandits..
...I will convince them based on the True sense... of our holy Scriptures...
....Vs their SELF- WILLED CONTENTIONS and Unbased Surmises"... said Ramanuja.
Accordingly the Experts-congregation of Vedic Scholars and Temple-Pandits was convened,...
... where the Acharya raised the same point with the Hindu Scholars...
In reply to the Acharya on such an erstwhile UNCHALLENGED QUESTION,... the Scholars defended their stand by quoting from Vedas, Geethas and Manu-Dharma-sasthra...
... trying to justify their parochial MEAN-MINDEDNESS... in counter to Social Equanimity.
Discriminatory MANU-DHARMA SASTHRA .. Ever approved Social- Code?
Ramanuja replied...
(1) So called Manu-Dharma Sasthra is... NEITHER A DHARMA.....NOR A SASTHRA... but only Adharma.... plus Autocratic-code for Domination by the Dictator Kings.... in the guise of implementation of Religious commandments...
... under the False-label of Divine-Gospel.... ...although made by an ordinary man ... NOT ORDAINED BY GOD...as you people are thinking.
The name MANU-SMRITHI.... means "The code made out by Manu"... Not Manu-sasthra.
Another section of Experts argued that the word "Manu" indicates "Mankind". So it is the Sasthra commonly laid out for the sake of Mankind of four divisions or strata, varying from the lowest to the highest.... on the basis of their community of birth
How Manu-Smrithi Originated?
It started with the then Kalinga-desam(present Orissa)... whose Dictator King documented this Manu-Smrithi... composed by his Minister named Manu. a Kshathriya by birth.
In those days of Monarchy in general, the Kings preferred to have the least content of Army.... that too confined to only for Self-defense against foreign invasion...
...and NOT FOR POLICING... which function was taken care of by the local team of Guards...separate for each colony. The team was made up of one member from each family of Residents by turn.
For functional convenience and representations with the King and the Clients as well, alongside the Social-security ensuring amity... the Workers of Specific skills preferred to stay together as a group residing within one colony.
Thus each colony became the Residences of Carpenters, Farmers, Cobblers, Musicians, Pandits and the like... by separate entities in each colony of its own ... located apart.
To ensure self- discipline in each colony at a negligible cost.
... the King announced an Annual Prize-award to the colony best ensuring Peace.
And the Self-imposed Codes for each colony was demanded for monitoring by the Government on the orderly conduct and proper implementation.
So each Community-wise Segmental leader, in consultation with their members framed the Social-codes for themselves... which were presented to the King
Then the Kalinga minister prepared a Comprehensive form of all the various Segmental-codes... into one Text... which was later named as Manu-Smrithi by the Kalinga King.
Further he made it as a Law... in the names of Castes, based on various Skills mostly. Further some communities were created by the King or the Society by way of Negative outlook.
Even during those days, it was not accepted by the Social-Scholars, stating that the punishments are disproportionate... that discremination on the basis of birth is UNETHICAL... and it is practically impossible to identify or prove anybody to belong to any specific caste...
... especially in a mixed Society of different communities... The Kings themselves caused such embarassing mixtures by maarying several girls from different communities. .
So it had been DROPPED FROM PRACTICE... since it became a practical failure... causing persistent Social upheavels...even during those days of law-origination.
So Manu-smrithi is totally out of consideration"... Ramanuja declared.
SOCIAL- DISCRIMINATION by birth ..Ordained by Vedas and Geetha.?
Then it was argued by the Scholars that the Vedas have affirmed on the Communalisation of the Society mass....
...and DISCREMINATION.... BY BIRTH.. as high and low... by the terminologies...
...in Purusha-Sooktham, the most important part of Vedas... as below.
"Braahmanosya mukham aaseeth.... Baahu Raajanya krithaha... Ooru thadhasya yadh Vaisyaha... Padhmyaagum Soodhro Ajaayatha.".
And Geetha says that the Four Communal -divisions... are MY MAKING .. meaning "by God"...
... by the words... "Chaathur Varnam Maya Srushtam"
Ramanuja immediately laughed at them... and said...
... "What a FOOLISH MIS-INTERPRETATION?
...To Continue....
...
...Geetha stipulates CASTE-DIVISIONS ... as God-made.?
Ramanuja-acharya Clarifies.... (In continuation of previous posting)
The Vedic-Scholars Assembly argued with the Ramanuja-acharya, that the Vedhas, Geetha alongside other Scriptures of the Vedic-Religion... ordain the Social-Strata by Caste-System...
... asserting the right and claim for Social-discrimination... evaluating the individuals on the basis of birth in a family.
Quoting for example ... "Geetha says that the Four Varnas ...Communal-divisions... are MY MAKING .. meaning "by God"...
... by the words... "Chaathur Varnyam Maya Srushtam".
Ramanuja immediately laughed at them... and said...
... "What a FOOLISH MIS-INTERPRETATION?... If anybody in darkness just touches an Elephant's Foot only, and declares that the Elephant resembles a Pillar...
... what can you understand about him.? So....is your argument based on Part-data, which is misleading...
... and so You mean these Castes or Communal-divisions ....WERE CREATED BY GOD... and that you all are ordained to follow the GOD-MADE DISCRIMINATION by birth.!!...Is it not?
But in fact, it is NOT SO...The full version of the relevant Geetha-sloka....
Chaathur Varnyam maya srushtam, Guna Karma vibhaagasaha
Thasya karthaaramapi maam vidhyadhyakarthaaram avyayam
... which means... "Four Classifications (of Humanity) by birth, is my creation... on the basis of their VARIED QUALITIES. Although I am the creator of such divisions by birth, I do not conduct them furtheron so. (I intend them to develop and raise up themselves.. by the best and ultimate opportunity by the Super-birth as Mankind)
Such divisions on the basis of innate Propensities have no connection nor concern with your own basis of Caste-divisions... and Social-discrimination.
By the above Sloka... it means... there may be a Born-Brahmin in a Cobblers family...by his high quality of pure "Sathva" ...
... similar to Nandanar, Tukaram and Thirupaanh-Aazhvaar...
... who deserve to be classified as Brahmins, even though born to the so-called Soodhra-parents and Heirarchy totally.
Similarly... due to the innate complex form of qualities of Thamo-guna plus Rajo-guna... there can be a BORN-SOODRA in a so called Brahmin-family...
...although born to Brahmin parents as well as Heirarachy totally....
Ajaamilha belongs to this category as Soodhra...because of his Non-Sathva qualities but of Thaamasa plus Rajo-gunas...by his thoughts and deeds...
... despite his birth to Brahmin parents and Family-lineage.
Lord Vishnu is called a SUDDHA-SATHVA...a high Brahminic-Quality according to all our Holy Scriptures.
But even amongst HIS various Awatharas ... we can notice this strange phenomena of varied qualities.
For example...Lord Parasurama is considered as Brahmin, since born to Brahmin parents
...but in the Realistic-sense, he was a Kashathriya by the matching qualities....
...being endowed predominantly with Rajo-guna alongwith Sathva-guna...
Otherwise He would not have chopped off His mother's head...under any circumstances... even on the commands of his father.
If he were a Brahmin by qualities, he would have pleaded with both his Father and Mother... basing on Dharma, requesting his Mother to apologise alongside appealing to his Father for pardon....
...or in the worst case... to render the due punishment to the Wife by the Husband himself, keeping off the son from the picture.
And in the case of Lord Rama....by the Brahminic qualities of Suddha-Sathva He proved Himself as a Brahmin although of Kshathriya heirarchy according to your basis....far different from the Vedic norms.
In brief... the Same names of classifications of Mankind as per the Vedic-Scriptures, have been adopted by the Kings for the families...
... on the basis of their occupation or some such divisions of Ruling- convenience.
So both these Basis should neither be connected nor inter-related... nor be based upon as Sacrament.....
.... asserted Ramanuja emphatically.
[We can understand this sense better by our present World History.... from the word INDIANS.
People born in the country called India... are considered as Indians.
And the ancient Tribes like Red-Indians of USA... Australian-Indians of Australia, and like... are also called as INDIANS.
Are both the same?... Is there any mutual Relation in between?
But only NAMED SO.... FOR CONVENIENCE.... of the Kings or Rulers]
So such a PAROCHIAL OUTLOOK of Social-discrimination cannot be taken shelter under either the Vedic Scriptures or under the name of any God- form
All over the Vedic Scriptures, you can find the insistence on ONLY UNIVERSAL EQUANIMITY...
....asserting the least inconsistency nor Self-contradictions anywhere all through.
So nobody is higher or lower by birth. It is sinful to consider or treat anybody so.
Social-Equanimity is the UNDOUBTEED GOSPEL...
...ORDAINED by all Scriptures including Geetha and Vedhas... declared Ramanuja.
Pardon me, just to clear by own doubt, in the Sans verse you cited, what are the Sanskrit words, which stand for the phrase: "by birth"?(which occurs in the interpretation above).Quote:
Originally Posted by suthaama
Ms.Sivamala "Guna Karma vibhaagasaha" means "According to Character and Kind of Job", which was what it is meant to be......I think, the translation and interpretation is wrong......thanks that you caught it. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by bis_mala
Dear "bis_mala" and "srivatsan"... Welcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by srivatsan
(1) Birth : In every Creation of Human-being.. it involves CREATION at the womb followed by BIRTH subsequently. So the sense of "Birth" is also implied by just the one word "Creation" in this case. however to emphatically stress on both these senses, I have mentioned as CREATOR and BY BIRTH.
(2) Guna-Karma Vibhaagasaha :It has to be analytically understood as... KARMA-GUNA VIBHAAGASAHA..
KARMA is the outcome of the Soul's Good and Bad deeds ..during the previous births.
So, according to the Karma-gunas accrued to the Soul... every Soul is ordained to take a minimum of 7 births of Strata... Starting from the WORM... upto its Final stage as MANKIND.
Worm is the most Inferior birth... due to its possession of only the SINGLE SENSE of Wisdom...
...while Mankind is the most Superior birth ...being the possessor of SIX SENSES of Wisdom.. wholly... deserving as the Super Intellectual.
Since each soul becomes Karma-bound due its varied past deeds, the subsequent birth is individually decided according to the degree and grade of past earnings of Karmas.
After series of such strata of births, finally the Soul reaches the Human-birth as the last opportunity for Self-emancipation.
Mukthi is the Final Goal of every Soul....as Non-return or Rebirth anymore..
But even for that ultimate choice as Human-birth, some souls do not get qualified due to its heavy accumulation of Karmas. However out of compassion and Hope ...
... God gracefully grants the highest Birth as Human...selectively to some souls...even though UNQUALIFIED for Human-birth..
Consequently... a Snake gets a Human-birth.... innate with the Snake- qualities.... although in the shape of Mankind...
....similarly a Cow, Fox, Tiger etc. too...get the most advanced Human- birth...
... mixed alongwith some other Souls,... fully qualified to be uplifted as Mankind...
They used to be of Ideal Human-Qualities... apt, EMULATIVE AND EXEMPLARY.
So on the basis of each Soul's pre-birth qualities... SO CARRIED-OVER
.... God classifies under one or the other of the Four Varnas(Species / Divisions) as due and apt... by the God's evaluation and judgement...
...IRRESPECTIVE of the Past and the Present PARENTAGE or HEIRARCHY
Thanks for admitting that this "by birth" is neither from the Geeta nor from the celebrated Ramanuja but your own mentioning. Grateful for clearing my doubts!!Quote:
Originally Posted by sudhaama
Dear bis_mala,Quote:
Originally Posted by bis_mala
What is this FUNNY ARGUMENT AND INFERENCE on your own... irrespective of my clarification?
I have already mentioned that the SENSE OF BIRTH IS.... IMPLIED .... "by Creation"....
... whether I pinpoint it or not. Rather in any case, it means so.. However I added EMPHASIS by repeating the sense once more.
So, even if I don't emphasise... the meaning will not go different.
If anybody says... "God created Sun"... will you understand it... that...
... it does not mean the... Sun's BIRTH.... ALSO !!!