New age IR's Raga Choices

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Originally Posted by thumburu

Suresh and V_S, Iam aware of how much SRR, as an album has resonated with u guys and I must Include plum who has written pages about the songs and movie as a whole. Good for all of u. The heart knows no reason and that is all that matters. What I find unpalatable is the " teknikal mulaam " like saraswathi/charamathi given to that too a rotten apple like “sanku shakraala” . So be it. I remember Mumbai Ramki terming it as plain embarrassment. May be I should have articulated better. More than the raga, it is the treatment, showing a novel facet of a raga , that counts.May be that was an excuse given to myself for finding “Jagadhanandha karaka” AND “Ramayanamu” just “good” and not “excellent”. My best pick from SRR,”Devulle menchulle” and my pick of 2011, “bhavani varugira” – I don’t care what ragas they are . Iam fascinated by these 2. Period.

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Romba periya koduma sir idhu.....except V_S, others who followed this post (RR, Suresh, JG) never bothered to condemn a forum'er (and a fan?!) using such cheap lowly adjectives (""rotten apple"")? I would want the moderator/admin of this thread to remove this post.


Its a pity that people think anything is rotten if they are ill-equipped to understand it. No wonder Raaja could care his foot to such people who dont even bother to understand a novel thing even if it is explained to them.

I have not been particularly attracted by this debate - but there is one thing I am utterly confident of : thumburu will never again be satisfied with a Raja album the way she was in 80s. Because she wants the Raja of 80s - specifically the tamil Raja of 80s. Good luck getting him back - wake me up when you do. The quotation of thaana vandha sandhaname is telling. You make the point that it is folksy yet satisfying the purist in you. Which precisely is what is being claimed for idhi pattabhi...except that it is telugu folk, not your comfy, accustomed tamil folk like thaanaa vandha. The terms of comparison you apply makes it impossible for you to be satisfied. If I had an objection to Idhi pattabhi, it would be that it doesn't have the inherent long-term appeal. It begins to wear off after a few listens. Which I could say for a good many folk numbers of yesteryear as welll, including thaana vandha. That goes with the territory. Folk is designed to be simple and easy on the ears - simple and easy tends to wear off quickly on the ears. That is from my perspective. From your perspective, you are not making an attempt to see SRR for what it is. This has been a problem for Raja - in his early days, he made music as he saw fit. Situations, competence of directors, storyline etc didn't matter and you had musical ideas flowing - essentially, pop music, elevated pop one might say, served through the medium of films. Sometime aroundmouna raagam, he seems to have become a slave to being driven by the story/screenplay/emotional needs of the movie. As we progress in his career, you can see that director's vision - even if the director is Valmiki director - matters the most. In that sense, he has become the Sivaji Ganesan of TFM. An artist too elevated for his environment but too respectful of it - that flies in the face of his image; but that reflects iin his work - the higher the artistic merit of the project, the higher the merit of his output. Exceptions could be there but I guess those would be the ones where the director failed to execute the vision as he narrated it to Raja. This being the case, without internalising the background of the movie, you cannot judge his score - especially for marquee projects like SRR. For those like suresh and myself, with a strong grounding on the background of Bapu, the folk songs sounded amazingly authentic - the raga details don't even matter to me - and served in a seductive Raja wrapper. You may ask "but I never had to make the effort in the 80s - he came over to me and seduced me". Fair enough - that's a choice you have to make. That pure Pop Raja, albeit elevated pop, who scored in multiple parameters irrespective of situations doesn't exist. You have to go to the mountain now. Mountain will not come to you. It was nice that the mountain came to you in the 80s but that's not the natural order of things - it is usually the other way around. Also, Idhi pattabi vs thaana vandha sandhaname may not be the right comparison. I listen to buddham saranam and Chinnari ponnari from Swathi muthyam and even they don't captivate anymore. That's the right comparison in many ways. Let's set the correct parameters of comparison first...

Suresh,

You have risen to the occasion :-) That was indeed a compelling argument about the Vakra raagas and their limitations. and I am definitely with you on this and I must compliment you for that remarkable insight. With that, I will definitely erase some of the raagas from my wishlist. So i should not be expecting him to belt out Sri raagam or Nalinikanthi anymore. But raaja does tease us with a saaranga (considered to be a vakra raagam) in Padithurai. So lets look forward to it.

Sri Rama Rajyam is an album in which I dont complain about Raaja's usage of those raagas and so I presume your points about this particular album were for RR.

I did like both Baba Pugazh Maalai and Ramana Saranam Saranam. If any, the Ayyappa swamy album didnt impress me much. (on an related note, I now recall that Raaja did one song in Desh raagam also, for one of the devotional albums. cant recall which one, but i liked it. I think Guru Ramana Geetham).

So, whether I am convinced? To a lot of extent, yes. But... my friend.. I still yearn to listen to him explore some other new raagas (excluding vakra raagams).. like may be lesser used Melakarthas or Hindustani oriented ones like behag, malhar etc. When I say new, I dont mean literally NEW but raagas like Shanmukhapriya, Sarasangi, etc - which he used earlier, but not offlate! I mean, tell me, if an album has 5 songs and if you read somewhere, even before listening, that there is a Keeravani and a Shanmukhapriya. Will one will you play first the moment you open the cd. I would play shanmukhapriya. I assume even you would play that one first.

I was already with you on your points about challenges and you didnt have to explain again :-)

And you are very well aware of my interest in Padithurai -because of Saranaga, Dhenuka and maand. Now dont they sound very different from the usual palette. Hence my curiousity. If anything, my whole argument was about wishing for more Padithurais :-)

Thumburu,

Please! I dont have even 1/nth (where n is a very large number) of knowledge that Raaja possesses, to be a qualified prosecutor. Would you please not associate me with "prosecutor" :-(. All the more, because I am seen as a defense lawyer of Raaja's music (his contemporary music, all the more), in the eyes of many people I interact with, in real world as well as on internet. So, please dont confuse my stance, lest people might call me a hypocrite! :-) I was trying to be an objectivistic observer (from my limited peanut sized knowledge) and I admit I am a greed-struck, always-craving music-buff! That alone can describe me the most (even better than words like HCIRF etc, about which i have few reservations).
I am just another fan, wanting more. :-) I hope I am not misunderstood!

Now, over to Baba Pugazh Maalai, upon Suresh's recco! been long time since i heard this album!

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Originally Posted by Plum

Folk is designed to be simple and easy on the ears - simple and easy tends to wear off quickly on the ears. That is from my perspective. From your perspective, you are not making an attempt to see SRR for what it is. For those like suresh and myself, with a strong grounding on the background of Bapu, the folk songs sounded amazingly authentic - the raga details don't even matter to me - and served in a seductive Raja wrapper. You may ask "but I never had to make the effort in the 80s - he came over to me and seduced me". Fair enough - that's a choice you have to make....

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very well put Plum.

Whoa! Fantastic stuff, folks! :clap:
It’s difficult coming across critical analysis of such kind in any other parts of this forum; speaks for the man, his music and the open-mindedness of his fans. Keep ‘em coming!
This debate doesn’t really necessitate taking sides, or so I think, and therein lies the beauty of it. We aren’t demeaning or defaming the man in any way, for who better than his disciples to analyze the trend changes in his music?

I’ve always brought this up in many discussions - he is also human like the rest of us, flesh and blood and bones. Age is bound to wear on the mind and any signs of mellowing down has got to be completely expected. Even after nearing the 70 mark with close to 40 years of active composing, I can only be happy that he is still able to bring out something fresh, to excite his fans/non-fans even now.
And in spite of being celebrated as a musical genius, he has no qualms in pursuing and learning something new to him. Like Kamal says in his interview, the fire might have gone off, but he keeps the cinder burning. Every now and then we see this agnikunju setting the forests ablaze!

While we may be seeing his choice of films and whining ‘nalladhor veenai seidhe’, he probably sees them all as opportunities to explore his newfound musical interests, sometime within constraints (devotional setting in SRR or folk in ASK) and at other times freewheeling (‘general’ films like Paa or Gayam). Why am I stating this here in this debate? Music (composing) is a creative process that involves exchange of ideas and perspectives to keep the mind inspired and to ‘keep the juices flowing’. Here is where the filmmaker, his clarity of thought, his ability to put across his views, his musical inclinations, if any, come into the picture, which is why a guy like Suka is able to get the man work on some lesser known ragams. And as far as the rest of the bunch is concerned, it’s what’s inspiring Raaja at that moment which becomes their soundtrack, which is what we eventually get on our plate. Like Suresh said, it’s probably jazz currently on his mind that might be pushing the carnatic base to the backburner. I’m quite confident that if there’s an able director, that magical combination of jazz and carnatic might happen. No, not that this wasn’t there in the 80s or any other phases of his career, that’d be me committing cardinal sin! But I’m guessing that the impact of ‘formal’ jazz training on his composing (versus knowledge from book/listening) combined with interesting carnatic scales would make a marked difference in the final output.

Moving on from ‘what can happen’ and ‘could have been’ to ‘what has happened’, I’m also of the opinion that SRR, while being a solid album, could’ve been better, either in the choice of ragams or in the compositions itself, if not for both. That said, I would, however, refrain from complaining on the folk songs in the album (and the degree of ragam prayogam in them). For me, these songs are as interesting as the pure classical numbers, after all, devotion and religion applies to all sections of the human society. Why should ‘shaka charalu’ be viewed as ‘plain embarrassment’ or tasteless? It’s a folk song and it’s good fun for someone like me who has little knowledge about AP’s nativity or Bapu’s record for such songs, and all this for people who are aware of it!

And finally, a well composed song set to a popular ragam is any day better than a half-baked usage of a rare scale. While VS could be applauded for choosing Nasikabhooshani, what eventually is the effect of the song on the listener? To me the song gave the feel of ‘hey! look, I’ve composed in a rare ragam! How cool is that?’ No, I’m not being biased here. He created a Rasikapriya beauty in ‘Ding dong koil mani’, the tuning, the instrumentation, everything worked beautifully for it. The Nasikabhoosani was just an average ‘effort’ in comparison. Allow me some fanboy talk - I’d take the, set to saadha dhanyasi, but lovely ‘Jagadananda taraka’ over it any time, any day!

Plum,

Excellent argument. You have put it much better than I could. I was hinting at that but as you rightly said, Raja has gone with, "Yes, I have lot of ideas, fine but are they appropriate in this situation. How do I serve this situation right?" Rajasaranam has been propagating this for a long time now. His argument has always been that there is never a Raja song which is bad if you take the situation into account. Of course, he can still do that if he wants but I don't think he will go that way. What I see if him going towards the newer genre but with a clear, "I need to ensure the song suits this situation". That's why I told a friend of mine to hold his horses about 'Dhoni'. Though it is being played on live instruments, the storyline is such that we cannot expect anything bombastic. The songs will merge beautifully with the situation and will be melodious. They will not blow you out of water. I am very clear 'Dhoni' is going to be something very pleasant but not something path breaking. Something along the lines of "Snehaveedu' or 'Nandalala'. As you said, he is sure that he is a servant of the media. These days some songs hit you immediately, like 'Sreeramarajyam' or 'chandrabimbathin' from 'Snehaveedu', whereas others take getting used to. And as you said, that is how Raja will remain.

Kamal,

Let me assure you. I too would jump at Raja using a new ragam for I know one thing. He s bound to give a new color to it and come up with something sensational. So along with RR, thumburu and you, I too wait but in the meantime I continue loving what he is dishing out :)

To answer another question you asked, with Raja you can never guess which will be the outstanding song of the movie based on the ragas. An excellent example could be 'Moga Mul'. It has two ragas which are rarely used in film music, 'Natakapriya' and 'Rama Priya'. While both of them were outstanding compositions, to me the best was'sollayo vaai thirandhu' which was Shanmukhapriya, a raga which he had used many times earlier. Yet, his genius in giving a 'viraha' touch to such a joyous raga stunned me.

I am also desperately waiting for the audio of 'Padithurai'. If someone is doing a dharna in front of Arya's house, I don't mind joining!!!

Regarding the folk song "Idhi Pattabhi" in SRR: I have written earlier, it completely fits the Bapu mould (his representation of folk) and if anything, I commend Raaja for perfectly putting out Bapu's vision in right form there. It is different matter that I might not listen to that song much, but that is me. But there is no Raaja's negligence there. Infact, in a certain way, a Sri Rama Lera is more of a "safe song" for Raaja - since it is something Raaja has done a lot before and is adept with the style/approach he has to take. But The folk song, is a challenge, because it is a director's song in my opinion. Catering to that, without completely giving up one's own stamp - is a tightrope walk. And Raaja walked it well! So i wouldnt call it a bad song. It is a right song. just that it doesnt suit to 'my' liking, particularly when I get to drool over Sri Rama Lera and Ramayanamu and others.

Suresh,

I agree about Mogamull. Sollayo was a song that caught me as well.

And yes, count me in, for the dharna. In front of Arya's house or even in front of Raaja's house! Output is what I want! :-)

KV,

Agree with you to a large extent except that 'age' thing. I would say the percentage of his song which are new, which are nice, which don't sound new and whatever categorization you do would be the same as in 80s. (I mean at how people looked at them in 80s. Now ofcourse we are 'discovering' lot of songs now.) What has happened is that his music has changed, the audience taste has changed and the connect is not happening as it used to till the early 90s. Infact I would go ahead and argue that his fire has burnt bright as his age advanced. For progressively outstanding grand albums kept coming on as he was aging. First it was 'Dhalapathi', then 'Kala Pani', then 'Guru', then 'Virumandi', 'Mumbai Express', 'Tiruvasagam' till 'Pazhassiraja' in 2009. I am sure if the budget is grand and the canvas is large he will come with something equal to 'Pazhassiraja'.

Even 'PazhassiRaja' is a case in point. We were all expecting another 'Guru'. But he gave something of equal grandeur but which was totally different. So I am one of those who claims that inspite of advancing age, Raja's flame burns bright. Time has not touched him musical imagination.