Kamalhassan's Ideology in his films

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Originally Posted by P_R

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Originally Posted by sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar

the aruvaal castes of hindus?? andgellaam potrippaadadi penne paadittu kadaisila thaan ubathesam solluvaaru.

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kAttumirANdippaya koottam-nu thittiyum point-ai miss paNNi 'pOtri paadadi'yai anthem-A use paNNA ennA seyyuradhu

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u opened my eye sir! but not fully :yessir:

Actually, bigger culprits when it comes to blind, nuance-less, "designed to please brahmin bashers for the sake of it", "cashing in on the saleability of brahmin bashing" - they escape without criticism. Vivek in saami for instance. That was a google search critique on brahmins. The director and the writer were simply regurgitating common cliches on the failings of Brahmins and were clueless about what thzey were trying to convey - like the principal in a troubled school meeting ordering a recital of national anthem knowing that it will evoke a conditioned response. Bhagyaraj in idhu namma aalu actually got accolades :banghead:

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Originally Posted by P_R

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Originally Posted by Plum

Feeyaar, in englis plis!

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ellAraiyum thittaNumnu sonnA adhula oru nyAyam irukku. yAraiyum thittakkoodaadhunnA eppudi?

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English vaazhga! :rotfl:

Flau, idhu namma aaLu-la enna frablau? :oops:

Actually, bigger culprits when it comes to blind, nuance-less, "designed to please brahmin bashers for the sake of it", "cashing in on the saleability of brahmin bashing" - they escape without criticism. Vivek in saami for instance. That was a google search critique on brahmins. The director and the writer were simply regurgitating common cliches on the failings of Brahmins and were clueless about what thzey were trying to convey - like the principal in a troubled school meeting ordering a recital of national anthem knowing that it will evoke a conditioned response. Bhagyaraj in idhu namma aalu actually got accolades :banghead:

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Originally Posted by Plum

As it has been repeatedly pointed out, Kamal's spiritual views are quite complicated and cannot be easily bucketed. Joe had linked an excellent article analysing this. Adhai vida theLivA sollamudiyAdhu.

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yes they are complicated. with complication comes confusion and mistakes. lets look into the link which joe posted:-
http://tinyurl.com/2vjpvtp

Bug No 1:

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தொடர் தோல்விகளில் திணறிய போது கம’ல’ஹாசன் என்பது கம’ல்’ஹாசன் என்று நாமஹரணம் சூடியது கூட இந்த குழப்பங்களின் நிதர்சனமே.

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Bug No 2:

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இதில் முரண்பாடு என்ன என்றால், மறு ஜென்மம் என்று ஒன்றை முன் வைக்கும் போது அங்கே பகுத்தறிவு பின்செல்லுகிறது.

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becos, marujenmam is NOT about caste or relegion. Its about karma
[digg]more of this in budda's dammapatham and most of osho's books, much simplified explanations in Isha Yoga Sadhguru's book "Gnaanathin Brammaandam" [/digg]

there was a hubber who mistaken that hariharan was 'purposefully' choosen to sing the song "kallai mattum kandaal"

point is, there are known bugs in the fans understandings of what kamal tries to say, on screen. Just becos his views, collectively, are complicated. In same way, why can't there be mistakes in his views too? This is like saying Kadavul padaippileye kutram ullathu, like singam "kills" maan for its lunch. But when i say mistakes, they are not a POV from any specific case or relegion. On humanitarian basis itself, there may be some mistakes

where it is complicated, there is confusions, mistakes.

plum,
Twisting my words :evil:

Be balanced and show the filth everywhere is what I said,nowhere did I mention that he should spoof muslim texts.

I will def not rejoice if KH stops his hindu/brahmin bashing and starts doing the same to the others.

I believe that artists should keep their political and religious ideologies to themselves and not make it public.It might reflect in your works but should appear as that of the characters and not yourself.

Before anyone questions why it should be like that,idhu en karuthu

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Originally Posted by sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar

avasiyame illai. hindu / brahmin bashing stop panninaale pothum

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"சரின்னு சொல்றதா இருந்தா வீதி நாடகமே போட்டிருக்க வேணாமே..."

Enga galileo vaaya pothikinu irundhidundhA? (Was it him who got executed for his revolutionary, anti-christian thought that the earth revolves around Sun? Eyavu istary eppavumE enakku weak-u?)

I'd rather question Ameer why he doesn't take on regressive religious views in his community
(Pretty wasted it'd be because the man has the choice of what he wants to question or not and it is not as if he has shown any intent or talent to do so thus far)
Infact, I am surprised why we all want the nice, cosy "let's not questionm hindus, let's not question muslims" "bhai bhai" status quo to remain. Ingeyum kekkanum angeyum kekkanum. Innum solla pOnA, 20-m nootrANdin miga perum samooga arasiyal vetRi adaindha paguthaRivu iyakkuthOda seerazhivu pathiyum kEkkaNum. As long as you don't bash brahmins, we dont mind these other institutions to be unquestioned is the easiest and most comfortable status quo for everyone.

Cinefan, apologies. Oru flowla vandhiruchu but andha tonela dhaan palarum inge sonnadhA enakku pattadhu. As I said above, it is not wrong to wish a structured questioning

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Originally Posted by Plum

Bhagyaraj in idhu namma aalu actually got accolades :banghead:

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why pulling Bhagyaraj :evil:

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Originally Posted by P_R

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Originally Posted by sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar

the aruvaal castes of hindus?? andgellaam potrippaadadi penne paadittu kadaisila thaan ubathesam solluvaaru.

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kAttumirANdippaya koottam-nu thittiyum point-ai miss paNNi 'pOtri paadadi'yai anthem-A use paNNA ennA seyyuradhu

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exactly..

See, bhagyaraj is a holy cow who cannot be brought in this discussion :)
Were the strawmen brahmin men who existed in that movie did any better than reinforcing second hand cliches(presented in a crowd pleasing fashion) about brahmins? Not that he shouldn't create such characters but adhukku mattum cutout kamal(who presents much more nuanced critique - the kindal of brahmin mamis in functions is quite different from the movies made with vision on a well analysed pov)ku getoutA?

Plum, you forgot Bala, who makes it a point to ridicule Brahmins in every movie. :P

Flau, I thought INA was very measured. Mainstream melodrama-la sila pala cliche reinforcement irukkathan seyyin.

But overall it wasn't that offensive. In fact, romba bhavyamA sonnadhA dhaan thONichu with Somayajulu being 'respected' till the very end etc.

Recall the PanjAyathu scene where Bagyaraj talks about how ppl laud when untouchability is violated in divined stories but cling on to it fastidiously in real life: அது கூட இந்த மாதிரி பெரியவங்கலெள்ளாம் சொல்லி தான் எனக்குத் தெரியும்!

If even after all that, it is found offensive, nemba kastam.

Yes Plum, If Bhagyaraj in INA is offensive and scant in its representation, then what we make of effusively manipulative scenes of "Angadi Theru" and all?! :lol2:

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Originally Posted by P_R

Flau, I thought INA was very measured. Mainstream melodrama-la sila pala cliche reinforcement irukkathan seyyin.

But overall it wasn't that offensive. In fact, romba bhavyamA sonnadhA dhaan thONichu with Somayajulu being 'respected' till the very end etc.

Recall the PanjAyathu scene where Bagyaraj talks about how ppl laud when untouchability is violated in divined stories but cling on to it fastidiously in real life: அது கூட இந்த மாதிரி பெரியவங்கலெள்ளாம் சொல்லி தான் எனக்குத் தெரியும்!

If even after all that, it is found offensive, nemba kastam.

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i think its written by Balakumaran . :roll:

IMO Vedham pudhidhu was well presented except the climax where Janaks tries to create chaos by spreading rumour.

sometimes cinema reflects real life incidents.. may be incidents from the distant past also.. athukkaaga namma complaint panna koodaathu..

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Originally Posted by Plum

See, bhagyaraj is a holy cow who cannot be brought in this discussion :)

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"Kamalhassan's Ideology in his films" is thread title.....then from where Bhagyaraj came ?

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Originally Posted by kid-glove

Yes Plum, If Bhagyaraj in INA is offensive and scant in its representation, then what we make of effusively manipulative scenes of "Angadi Theru" and all?! :lol2:

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Ada adhillaipA. The extent of encouragement provided to such efforts as path-breaking critique on brahminism, and the general level of reception. What Kamal does(in his movies) is more important but receives brickbats, instead. As regards his speeches digging brahmin maamis etc, enna solradhu? ThavirthurukkalAm. But adhai nAn solla mAttEn. Sandiyar speechla left and right pala institutionsai attack paNNaliyA? More than hindu-muslim, I'd like Kamal to take on the pagutharivu iyakkam which has degenerated into another religion. Again, it is not something he is likely to feel for to the extent he felt against brahminism, which is nurtured from childhood.

Then again, given his birth, that will be the cue to complete destruction of him in TN. Paarpana dhrogi periyaar bhakthanA nadichikittirundurukkAnpA will be the refrain. It is a lot more difficult for guys like mani and kamal in this aspect. For Mani it doesn't matter because he skirts these issues and is interested in other things mainly. For Kamal to have this handicap is a loss not just to him.

SarNA , kalavaramnA naalu thalai uruLa thAn seyyin? enna seyya?

I got the intention in bringing-in Bhagyaraj, Plum. Needless to say, I agree with your post(s)..

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Originally Posted by Plum

Virumandi - ofcourse his personal experience of the milieu, culture and people is what makes the movie.

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are you sure that kamal spent his adolescent age near madurai surrounding ?

wiki says, kamal spent 9 years(after kalathur kannamma) to do his education.... parallely kamal learnt karate and bharatanatyam.... hardcore kamal fans can throw more light on this :)

ப்ளம்.... அதாகப்பட்டது, கமலின் சிந்தனைகளுக்கு மகுடம் சூட்ட, பாக்யராஜை இகழ்கிறீர்கள்.... பலே :)

On Idhu Namma Aalu,agree with some of the others that it was balanced and sometimes even respectful towards the community, despite a few cliches.

Also agree with Plum that KH/Mani can never make a film on the degeneration of the Dravidian movement.This situation too is a kind of compromise due to intolerance but on this I will not call him a hypocrite but sympathise.

Now don't ask why am I being selective :D

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Originally Posted by Anban

sometimes cinema reflects real life incidents.. may be incidents from the distant past also.. athukkaaga namma complaint panna koodaathu..

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then why so many other incidents involving the other communities go under represented or unrepresented? is that because you dont expect an iyer to come to your doorstep to hack off your limb? :)

even if you take the untouchability aspect, we all know which communities practiced them the most. why particularly blame only brahmins? so that the other communities get a scapegoat and and get rid of the guilt from their collective conscience?

there were so many instances in the last 3 decades where dalit boys have married brahmin girls and still the dalit is alive to tell the tale. and there is one particular community which will hack off the dalit's neck if he manages to even firt around with a girl of their community. who are the real fanatics?

Brahmins were not traditionally landlords and most of the times Dalits were landless labourers. most of the times the maximum exploitation of Dalits were done by the communities who owned agricultural land and for their own benefits (cheap labour and so on) they never wanted dalits to progress. and when their collective conscience hurts, they conveniently point their fingers at brahmins. naansense. :evil:

Plum,

just logged in and going through the posts. will post my reply soon. :)

Plum,

My stand is same as that of Sakala's. do i need to explain more?

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Originally Posted by sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar

there are 2 states. either blame everybody or remain silent. but do you expect in any time will he bash muslims, christians, or the aruvaal castes of hindus?? angellaam potrippaadadi penne paadittu kadaisila thaan ubathesam solluvaaru. whereas cross belt communitynnaa straight bashing thaan.

athaan avangalai neradiyaave nakkal naiyaandi ellaame panniyaache! innum enna baakki irukku?!? inimelaavathu mouth close panninaa athuve pothumdaa saami

but, with what we smell, with marmayogi, again, he goes back to bash saivaites whom kazhuvetrified samanars.

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spot on :clap:

that marmayogi thing is without any solid hostorical evidence.
but in marudhanayakam trailer, he refers to a community as 'religion of peace', but there is enough and more historical evidence that, that community orchestrated a Hindu genocide of not less than 600 million people over one millennium. hardly peaceful. :huh:

the only thing is that he heavily under represents the other side. and I have lost hopes that he will ever change.

Appo modhallerundhu padichadhula indha oru post dhaan ungaLukku vaagA irumdhirukku? NuancedA pEsikittirukkumbOdhu dhobukadeernu oru generic stance pOttuttu this explains allnA epdi vAdhyArE?
But marubadiyum modhallerundhA? Naan varalai.

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Originally Posted by Plum

Appo modhallerundhu padichadhula indha oru post dhaan ungaLukku vaagA irumdhirukku? NuancedA pEsikittirukkumbOdhu dhobukadeernu oru generic stance pOttuttu this explains allnA epdi vAdhyArE?
But marubadiyum modhallerundhA? Naan varalai.

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pardon me, :oops: , havent read all the posts in detail. just glanced through their contents :oops:

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Originally Posted by Plum

What Kamal does(in his movies) is more important but receives brickbats, instead. As regards his speeches digging brahmin maamis etc, enna solradhu? ThavirthurukkalAm. But adhai nAn solla mAttEn. Sandiyar speechla left and right pala institutionsai attack paNNaliyA? More than hindu-muslim, I'd like Kamal to take on the pagutharivu iyakkam which has degenerated into another religion. Again, it is not something he is likely to feel for to the extent he felt against brahminism, which is nurtured from childhood.

Then again, given his birth, that will be the cue to complete destruction of him in TN. Paarpana dhrogi periyaar bhakthanA nadichikittirundurukkAnpA will be the refrain. It is a lot more difficult for guys like mani and kamal in this aspect. For Mani it doesn't matter because he skirts these issues and is interested in other things mainly. For Kamal to have this handicap is a loss not just to him.

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I agree. :) (and i really read it this time :yes: )

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Originally Posted by kalyan

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Originally Posted by Anban

sometimes cinema reflects real life incidents.. may be incidents from the distant past also.. athukkaaga namma complaint panna koodaathu..

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then why so many other incidents involving the other communities go under represented or unrepresented? is that because you dont expect an iyer to come to your doorstep to hack off your limb? :)

even if you take the untouchability aspect, we all know which communities practiced them the most. why particularly blame only brahmins? so that the other communities get a scapegoat and and get rid of the guilt from their collective conscience?

there were so many instances in the last 3 decades where dalit boys have married brahmin girls and still the dalit is alive to tell the tale. and there is one particular community which will hack off the dalit's neck if he manages to even firt around with a girl of their community. who are the real fanatics?

Brahmins were not traditionally landlords and most of the times Dalits were landless labourers. most of the times the maximum exploitation of Dalits were done by the communities who owned agricultural land and for their own benefits (cheap labour and so on) they never wanted dalits to progress. and when their collective conscience hurts, they conveniently point their fingers at brahmins. naansense. :evil:

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valid point.. Marudhanaayagam script involves such kodurams done by other upper castes against lower caste ppl and even the death of poolithevar etc... thats why Marudhanaayagam is in deep trouble for years.. trailer brahmins kodumai paduthura maathiri kaamikkalayea..

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Originally Posted by Anban

valid point.. Marudhanaayagam script involves such kodurams done by other upper castes against lower caste ppl and even the death of poolithevar etc... thats why Marudhanaayagam is in deep trouble for years.. trailer brahmins kodumai paduthura maathiri kaamikkalayea..

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maruthanayakam controversy is not because the upper castes were portayed in bad light. it was more because, Maruthanayakam was actively involved in the death of Poolithevar by treachery, and poolithevar's community cant come to terms with such a person being depicted as a 'freedom fighter'

Maruthanayakam was a costly lesson to KH, and he doesnt dare to offend the sentiments of the other dominant castes anymore. It just reinforces the fact that until the soft targets like brahmin use force, he is going to continue his potshots against them.

unfortunate, but true. :)

கமலிடம் உற்று கவனிக்க வேண்டிய இன்னொரு விஷயம் "Casting"

ஒரு பேட்டியில் வசுந்ராதாஸை HeyRam -ற்கு தேர்ந்தெடுத்ததை குறிப்பிடுகையில் (சரியா இதே வார்த்தைகளில் தான் சொன்னார் என இப்போது நினைவு படுத்த முடியவில்லை. ஆனால் அதன் சாராம்சம் இதுதான் ), "படத்தில் வரும் பிராமணப் பெண் வேடத்திற்கு ஒரு புதுமுகம் தேவைப்பட்டது.
பிராமணப் பெண்ணாக தேடிக்கொண்டிருந்தோம். கடைசியில அவுங்க அய்யங்கார் எனத் தெரிந்தபோது பாத்திரத்திற்கு முழுப் பொருத்தமாகப் பட்டது.."

இது ஒரு வகையில் "சாதிப் பாகுபாடுகள் தொடரட்டும்" என்ற நிலைப்பாடா? முரண்பாடா?

பேட்டியை படித்தவுடன் சட்டனெத் தோன்றியது.."அப்புறம் ஏன் தேவர் மகனில் ஒரு பிராமணப் பெண்ணை தலித்தாக நடிக்கணும்? தேடிப் பிடித்து ஒரு தலித் பெண்ணையே நடிக்க வைத்திருக்கலாமே?"

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Originally Posted by venkkiram

பேட்டியை படித்தவுடன் சட்டனெத் தோன்றியது.."அப்புறம் ஏன் தேவர் மகனில் ஒரு பிராமணப் பெண்ணை தலித்தாக நடிக்கணும்? தேடிப் பிடித்து ஒரு தலித் பெண்ணையே நடிக்க வைத்திருக்கலாமே?"

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:confused2: did i miss something? are you referring to Revathi? then i have two questions

1) Is revathi a brahmin? I thought she is a menon.
2) is Panchavarnam's character portrayed as a Dalit in the movie? (i knew Tabu's was portrayed as one in virasat) how did i miss that? :oops:

Revathi is "thevar" in that movie...i feel thats how its implied

but vadivelu and co shud be dalith

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Originally Posted by sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar

but vadivelu and co shud be dalith

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any direct/indiret references?

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Originally Posted by kalyan

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Originally Posted by sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar

but vadivelu and co shud be dalith

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any direct/indiret references?

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vadivelu mentions the guy who cut his arm as "namma payathaayaa" to kamal

he could be thevar too...

may be, i am escape :yessir: