IR News and Other Titbits Ver.2009

irir123, the prelude starting notes(probably the first three chords) must have let you feel that it is similar. But come on, that sort of start is prevalent in most WCM compositions. There must be a very strong flow in the song to be considered plagiarised. I can understand that you cannot tolerate plagiarism. But IR does not do blatant stuff.

When it comes to music, the composer must have had some sort of pre-determined influence and style that he comes up with when he composes. IR is affected strongly by bach's style of using sonatas and counterpoints and most of his interludes have atleast three different rhythms playing against each other. If you consider such as plagiarism than thalaivar can go to jail.

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Originally Posted by irir123

its not that either of these men could NOT have done everything entirely original, it sucks when they do NOT acknowledge the original creator in their works (at the time of composing/writing) and later we discover them

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I agree on the acknowledgment count. But really, if he acknowledged Antonio Ruiz Pipo for a folk song from "murattu kaalai" starring Rajini, how many people would have got it? I feel he does these things for personal amusement. (IR atleast acknowledged Bach and Thyagaraja in HTNI)

As for similarities in other songs.. you guys should listen to country music. you will say everyone is copying from everyone.

irir123,

I am not trying to claim that songs were not copied. As I had said earlier, there are a few instances where the whole song has been copied. It is just that we need to differentiate between what has been cut and pasted and what has been taken and new structure built upon. Understanding this and accepting the cases where the song was indeed copied does not mean we are diminishing the music of Raja.

What is interesting is that in many cases where you cannot even find the resemblance Raja has openly said where he has adapted it from. (I remember him telling this about an Aboorva Sagodhararal song and a MSV song. There was no way that I would have connected these two. Same thing about 'Inji Idupazhaga' and a S D Burman song)

sigh :-(

My original post (that triggered off the whole copy discussion) was not indented to showcase someone "copying" IR at all.

It was a case of "using" IR's stuff for a commercial ad and wondering whether he gets any proceeds out of that from Saravana stores or ad agency (as IR was at one point of time known as royalty-savvy and a pioneer in getting proper compensation for music makers).

I don't think the ad-maker is claiming it's his original music or anything like that (which is what all these discussions are about).

On a similar topic, those movies that use IR songs liberally as BGM (not the remixes, the originals themselves) don't seem to show any "nanRi" titles.

Does it mean they pay the music companies that own rights to the originals? (siRu ponmaNi in subramaiyapuram, for e.g.)

IR's copies / inspirations / adaptations / acknowledging - non-acknowledging / paying-not paying etc is a different subject altogether.

I remember reading those days that each time AIR plays a film song, the film's producer got one rupee :-) That was as per the agreed terms between AIR & movie producers, as a compensation.

There may be similar arrangements between those having rights and those who use them. For e.g. if Sun TV shows a song, it has possibly paid something to the owner of the original. I was only asking about such industry practices / lack thereof.

I don't mean to continue, but just my 2 c.

irir123 - I can understand what you meant by bad taste after learning IR's flicks from other sources. I was shocked too. but for such a talented guy to do something like that - there must be a reason. Either way with or without reason, considering his accomplishment, I treat it as a drop in an ocean.

In future, who knows, as we advance in technology and information, we'll learn how the current MD's or hiding their 'copying'. Already itwofs sites are pretty good at it.

I think someday, we may advance so much that, there might be a 'google' search wherein you feed a piece of music as mp3 or something and then find similar ones.

People like IR, MSV etc had real talent and did not depend on tech.

Just like irir123 I also feel "let down" when I hear "IR has copied" something. Anyways, this is the first time I got to hear the originals.
My take is - many of the songs are original compositions based on a line or a phrase. My understanding is, this is a genuine/valid exercise in composition - அடி எடுத்து கொடுப்பது whether this is in lyrics or music (though it is like getting a help and so not a truly/wholely individual effort) . The funny thing is that this concept of "creating a composition" itself has become a "endangered art form". Many film songs today the pallavi and charanam are out of character. After IR, only ARR seems to do a good job. For eg. I find lots of "sore thumb"/notes in kaadhal valartheEn (from YSR). In munbe Vaa, I find the ending part ....malli etc not in line with the rest of the tune.
Hey..I am not a music expert, but I dont get this feeling in IRs or MSV or earlier MDs' songs.
That apart, we have gone past the composition of a song kind of world to a "building a song from parts" world. The new MDs are like Product Managers who pick voices, pick chords from a library, or even accept changes in tune from singers. So the current MDs are playing an "integrator" role rather than a "creator" role.

Ultimately, we have to see who is the most creative musician and I think we all dont have any doubts about that on IR, I think.

Listen to Bach's badinerie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVxwuirUX-M
the first few seconds have been used ditto by IR in an interlude. Can you tell which one? And no one has raised the copy allegation on that yet, cos no one has discovered it yet.

Have you heard "Spanish caravan" by The Doors?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JklQQ4f52RY
It uses Albeniz's "Asturias(Layenda)" ditto (and I've never seen an acknowledgment).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEfFbuT3I6A
Why isn't anyone crying "copy"??

I feel all this "copy" talk is just a tool for ignorant people to belittle something they don't even understand. It is sad to see knowledgeable people also buying into it. Somehow, people take liberties judging IR in a way they wouldn't dare to do with any other artist of his stature.

ராஜா தனக்குப்பிடித்த வேறொருவரின் இசையை உள்வாங்கி இசை அமைத்தால் அது தவறில்லை. ஆனால் அதே மற்ற இசையமைப்பாளர்கள் செய்தால் தவறு. இந்த அணுகுமுறைதான் பெரும்பாலான ராஜாவின் இசை ரசிகர்களுக்கு இருக்கிறது. சிவாஜியின் நடிப்பை நல்ல நடிப்பென்று ஒரு கூட்டமும், மிகையான நடிப்பு என்று விமர்சனம் செய்யும் ஒரு கூட்டமும் இருப்பதுபோலத்தான் ராஜாவின் இசைப்பாடல்களுக்கு வரும் விமர்சனங்களும். விமர்சனங்களே வரக்கூடாது என்ற தன்மையில் தான் ரஜினி, கமல், ராஜா, ரகுமான் போன்ற புகழடைந்தவர்களின் ரசிகர்களது இணையத்திரிகள் இயங்கி வருகிறது. இதுபோன்ற தனிவழிப்பாட்டு முறை எந்தவிதத்திலும் பலதரப்பட்ட நல்ல விஷயங்களை எடுத்துச்செல்ல, பதிவு செய்யத் தவறிவருகிறது.

ராஜாவே சொல்லிவிட்டார். எம்.எஸ்.வி, ரகுமான் மற்றும் தனது இசையெல்லாம் இசையில் பல்வேறு சுருதிகள் தான் என ராஜாவே சொல்லிவிட்டார். அப்படியிருக்கும்போது, ஏன் இந்த இணையத்தளத்தில் எம்.எஸ்.வி, ராஜா, ரகுமான் போன்ற எல்லோரது இசைப்பாடல்களையும் ஒரே இடத்தில் ஒரே திரியில் நாம் எல்லோரும் பகிர்ந்து கொள்ளக்கூடாது?

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Originally Posted by ananth222

Listen to Bach's badinerie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVxwuirUX-M
the first few seconds have been used ditto by IR in an interlude. Can you tell which one? And no one has raised the copy allegation on that yet, cos no one has discovered it yet.

Have you heard "Spanish caravan" by The Doors?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JklQQ4f52RY
It uses Albeniz's "Asturias(Layenda)" ditto (and I've never seen an acknowledgment).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEfFbuT3I6A
Why isn't anyone crying "copy"??

I feel all this "copy" talk is just a tool for ignorant people to belittle something they don't even understand. It is sad to see knowledgeable people also buying into it. Somehow, people take liberties judging IR in a way they wouldn't dare to do with any other artist of his stature.

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THe Bach piece is adapted in the 2nd interlude of 'manjal nilavukku' - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj11EyIozaM

from 3:33 onwards, right ? thats a very short piece and a clear inspiration, but developed well by IR

I can point out several other hidden usages in other IR songs as well - they dont bother me much - for instance, the song"madai thiranthu" sounds a bit like BoneyM's "one way ticket" - the feel is the same, may have been inspired

but the aforementioned pieces in kalyanaraman etc are a different story