An issue

Detestation for detractors womanhood’s virtues & admiration for appreciators of woman’s great role in mankind’s existence are two sides of a coin, I suppose. Man is special in Nature, woman is extra-special because the procreation of the race rests upon her. Everything surrounding motherhood, conception, delivery, lactation are awe-inspiring wonders. Latest attention has been focused on the umbilical blood very rich in stem cells which unfold a vista of future medical solutions & remedies.

blahblah & Scorpio have spoken utterly truthful words. I add, from a woman's pov, a husband is more lovable for being "possessive" -marriage makes sense only with this possessiveness, considering each other's body & soul precious & untradable. This is the common psychological fact. But of course there are exceptions.

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Originally Posted by pavalamani pragasam

blahblah & Scorpio have spoken utterly truthful words. I add, from a woman's pov, a husband is more lovable for being "possessive" -marriage makes sense only with this possessiveness, considering each other's body & soul precious & untradable. This is the common psychological fact. But of course there are exceptions.

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Oh!I was just thinking about the same thing and was about to respond to Scorpio about this.I know my woman loves me more because I am possessive about her.I have seen it in her eyes.Possessiveness of a partner declares love.Your words make sense to those who hold marriage sacred-"considering each others body and soul precious and untradable"!That is the very spirit of marriage and I feel that is enough reason for me to oppose surrogacy and artificial insemination.Should a marriage survive on conditions?What if you don't have children?For those who have experienced it,marriage is fruitful and is a fullfilment in itself.It makes a man a man and woman a woman.

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Originally Posted by blahblah

[Your words make sense to those who hold marriage sacred-"considering each others body and soul precious and untradable"! That is the very spirit of marriage and I feel that is enough reason for me to oppose surrogacy and artificial insemination

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It's my opinion as well !! :)

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Originally Posted by Shekhar

If a woman doesn't want to have a child from her lover/husband does it mean that her love is incomplete?? Honestly I donot know.

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It depends on the woman. There is a spectrum of people with different moralities and desire, Shekhar. Some may not think like you do. They are not wrong either. :)

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Your intellectual analysis of the issue is highly impressive. But how simple or how complex (complicated!!) life could be depends on how you approach life.

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It is ndeed a quite complicated issue when a couple dont have children of their own. There is all kinds of stress and, it all depends on the individual couple handling this problem.

And there is no "one single remedy" as "adoption" for every couple, I think.

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If you don't have a child, adopt ... simple. If you love the child it is yours.

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You sound like Praveen Kumar now.

Is that not up to that couple to decide what they should do?

Especially when there are so many means are available to sort out the problem unlike old days, where the guy will go marry another woman and ruin the life of first wife.

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Everyday we hear crimes committed by genetically related people against each other. We see cases of old parents left unattended by their genetic children. We see child abuse by the parents..yes even in US. So to eulogise desire for a child of ones own genes is hogwash.

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So? What do you mean? My children will look, act and do things like we do because they are mine and, that is mainly because they carry our genes. I really cant understand some other kids and their morality which might come through the genes of their biological parents.

Would I not be happier to see mine and my partner's in my kids' attitude rather than someone else's attitude which I can never understand?

Mellon, what you say is correct. Among millions of people around the world there is bound to be lots of difference in temperament, beliefs & preferences. And also it is true only the affected will know the pain of their problem. “Veyyilin arumai nizalil theriyum”. But what has been expressed so far is the general, common pattern of reacting to a very sensitive, private issue. There is no moralizing whatsoever. It is a matter of choices which as you said childless couples of the past didn’t have. But let me repeat what I already pointed out- in olden times childless couples chose to remain so not willing to seek the simple solution of adoption, bearing with grit the “stigma” of issuelessness & the sadness of solitude. Because it is there in the psychology- an unwillingness to resort to widening the horizons of self & self’s own. The times have changed, lifestyles have changed, perspectives have changed. It is a global atmosphere without inhibitions & restrictions of any nature. In such a liberal era people are bound to make different choices. And of course the hard-grained will continue also. Some convictions & attitudes don’t change. Need they? There is no alarming social harm done. Surrogation is not a crime, quite a legally accepted procedure. But still it is not wrong for observers to analyse the pros & cons of such a decision, the effects of it-mental, physical & conjugal- on the parties involved. :o
This thread has been creating an awareness about a practice gaining importance in our part of the world. Just that. Shall we move on to "sing" about Sania Mizra now, as the world expects us to? :lol: A gem, she is. Wish I were more athletically inclined like my hubby is! :cry:

A correction:”nizalin arumai veyilil theriyum”.
A jolly good juggler’s job I am doing tossed between chores of a household with a newborn baby, the delivered mother, a "Denis the menace" etc & hub addiction!

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Originally Posted by mellon

You sound like Praveen Kumar now.

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Mellon, such a comment is uncalled for..
The greatest truths lie in simplest statements. If you cannot perceive that the loss is yours.

I know your views and mine never coincide.
All the complication arise from our own thinking, our attitudes. What is needed is a paradigm shift. If we are not capable of that, then we have to pay the price, whatever it is. We can go on arguing endlessly in this hub and elsewhere. But life doesn't change for us unless we do...

Shakthi, Shekhar, PP, Scorpio, Roshan, blahblah and mellon:

Thank you very much for having the patience to read through my lengthy posts and expressing your views and comments! :D

PP, I am sorry I couldn’t help the KB reference :P (isn’t he KB, you’ve mentioned SB, who is a veenai maestro, I think :? ). I’m afraid I haven’t watched the ‘fatafat’ movie, it was probably inappropriate for my age then and anyway, KB movies (with such controversial themes) were ‘taboo’ in our household, the ones I’ve seen were heavily censored DD versions. I share your sentiment on that. He portrayed liberalism as merely irreverent debauchery and the emancipated women as rampant vigilante women’s libbers!! :x

I am aware of the fact that some of our hub friends are adoptive parents. I am sure they would rather feel embarrassed (out of their humility) to be praised for it, so let me not go there. I would instead like to request them to be supportive, if and when they can, of hubbers who need direction on adoptive parenting. :)

My statements and questions (with too many Q marks :oops: ) weren’t meant as provocative, one-sided, headstrong ideas; they were mostly in wonderment and contemplations. So if I had conveyed the idea of being against something when questioning it, that wasn’t the fact, but only that I’m not very good at effectively putting my point across. :(


Shekhar, there could be nothing extraneous requisitely completing the love shared in a marital relationship. If the absence of something, in this case a baby, makes love incomplete, it wasn’t love to begin with. What I had tried to imply was NOT that when a woman loves a man she thinks has to have babies with him, but, when a woman wants a baby, she would love to have it with the man she loves! :D

Scorpio, I appreciate your outspoken frame of mind. Usually people tend to shy away from expressing non-populist opinions for fear of being misconstrued as misfits. I could freely speak for both sides while NOT being against either side, because I support both adoption and surrogacy! :)
My personal stance would be adoption but I have my own reasons for it.

I can understand how it would feel, to have a child with the features of one’s loved one and one that is a part of one’s self, to look into its eyes and get lost in the sea of inexplicable emotions. But at the same time, an adopted child could be someone that the parents could fall in love with, irrespective of whom the genetic material came from. It could be a child borne in the hearts of the adoptive parents not necessarily in the womb.

I am sure it is not possible for everyone to look at both options as being acceptable, this way. In fact, as I said before I used to be critical of infertile couple spending insane amounts of money and time without getting anywhere. After an introspective look at my judgmental attitude and my poor understanding of their inner craving to have a child I realized that, this is how we have built and sustained ourselves as humans. We procreate with the sense of instinctual ownership and belonging – the child and the parents belong to each other by simple yet indestructible bonds of passively inherited filial attributes. It is what we have done for thousands of years, and will continue to do, ever in search of the humbling human spirit that ensconces us. :)

On the other hand, an adoptive parent could become the “adopted parent” by the child. When a child that is denied its origins, develops the same kind of indestructible bond with a genetically unknown set of parents, isn’t it an awe-inspiring thing to be a part of! I strongly believe, genes or no genes parental love is love, pure and simple. To beget a child in one’s heart, without bearing it in one’s womb is nature’s powerful way of propagating parenthood – it may not be possible for everyone, but it is an undeniable faculty of uncorrupted goodness that can fill even the deepest void! :D

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Originally Posted by Shekhar

Mellon, such a comment is uncalled for..
The greatest truths lie in simplest statements. If you cannot perceive that the loss is yours.

I know your views and mine never coincide.
All the complication arise from our own thinking, our attitudes. What is needed is a paradigm shift. If we are not capable of that, then we have to pay the price, whatever it is. We can go on arguing endlessly in this hub and elsewhere. But life doesn't change for us unless we do...

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Good one Shekhar :thumbsup: As usual you have spoken some words of wisdom in simple language. Highly admired and appreciated :D

I have nothing more to say as regards this issue as I feel it's high time we wound up the subject (some may feel disappointed I know :wink: ). Thanks to PP madam, Shekhar, cygnus, scorpio, shakthiprabha, sudhama, querida, jaiganesh and blahblah for their insightful thoughts. It was indeed a great discussion after a long time. :D

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Originally Posted by mellon

You sound like Praveen Kumar now.

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Originally Posted by Shekhar

Mellon, such a comment is uncalled for..

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Shekhar:

I never thought calling someone as * sounds like "pkm" is quite "offensive"*. Sorry, Shekhar, it could very well be a good compliment if you don't know.

As for I can see *pkm* has been very honest. He speaks of his mind clearly without hiding anything. I know there are thousands of Indians who do love to eat non-veg but does not have the courage to argue or say that they are eating non-veg like our *pkm* courageously said. I do believe his sincere suggestion to others to eat non-veg is just lack of diplomacy or lack of shrewdness in choosing the "correct wordings". Anyway, let us leave him as u feel that it is unnecessary.

I must admit that I respect u as an adopting parent. It is a great and courageous thing to do. At the same time, I do think Cygnus does have a valid point and knows what she is talking about. I mean she REALLY knows well what she is trying to convince. I wonder why do u have to give a serious lecture criticizing her view on that as if she does not know what she is talking about? If it is like the example brought up by Scorpio, “surrogating” is a "legal deal" between "two educated and highly civilized couples" to help each other mutually I don’t see a serious problem there. The consequence of that is similar to one who donates his/her kidney or of that sort. You would never know whom to blame if there were some complications later.

It is easy to suggest what the (un)fortunate couple should do which is adoption. I mean most of us would not know how it be something like not having your own child unless we experience it. I don’t want to suggest someone to "take it easy" or “just adopt a child” when I don’t have or face that problem she or he is facing. Because I just don’t know how it be like nt having a child or adopting. How can I suggest adoption is the best solution when I am “ignorant” about that problem? My intuition tells me it is very debatable.

If we are all really unselfish and care about India, we all should stop having our own children and just adopt no matter whether we are fertile or not. How many of us -the highly educated people and pretending patriots- are ready to do that? The fact is we are all selfish. Our selfishness is just not revealed when u can easily have your own children. We should not just insist or embarrass the people those who have difficulty in getting their children. We should not suggest not to try the new developments in the medical field as long as it is legal and mutually beneficial. Because I believe the couples those who have the problem only know how "precious" it is to have a child of their own (genetically). But I doubt very much whether most of such couples have the courage to say it loud just like "our non-veg eaters who lack the courage" to speak up or justify.

Cheers!