Ramayana - Another Great Epic

As a modern woman of contemporary times - Now this is one aspect of the epic that I reject, whatever message it may contain, Pa!!! :x

The Woman was abducted and kept incarcerated by a villain who had a score to settle with Rama. But despite everything she had endured, she had to submit to some sort of inspection of her chastity??!!! No way Jose!! :x

All literature, whether it is modern or ancient epics, are written as mere stories by the writer. Whatever messages they may contain is merely subjective! So in that vein, I'm afraid, merely extolling the virtues alone without the negative aspects does not make a good discussion.

So sorry, if my two sen's worth is grating but as a woman, I needed to say it!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nirosha sen

As a modern woman of contemporary times - Now this is one aspect of the epic that I reject, whatever message it may contain, Pa!!! :x

---

You began in the right way, Niro - as a modern woman of contemporary times! That is precisely it. Whenever we try to understand an epic or a legend, be it a Greek or Roman or Indian one, we need to put ourselves in mind of the times when they were written.

As people of a contemporary society, what we find as unpalatable, entirely unacceptable was the norm of a society of another day. But that was how society was in those days. To try and map those practices to modern day is totally irrelevant and inappropriate. For instance, the athletes in the Olympic Games of ancient Greece would participate in the nude, as a method to deter women from attending the events! Now, that was alright in keeping with those times, perhaps. But we cannot judge them in the light of modern society, modern laws, customs and practices.

An epic like Ramayana or Odessey are meant to be read, and if possible, such values/messages as inherent in them, be emulated. But judged? I don't think so.

Not that I think you are judging it, Niro. I'm just making an observation, that is all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Querida

digression *whoa SRS lose mom and daddy dear in one pyre eh? You could also say it was economical for not to have two pyres and save everyone the time to have to mourn all over again? And imagine the amount of white material and the shame of having a badluck widow...please atleast can choice of the wife matter or do we all need a push towards rejoining the inferno?*

---

There is a difference between what is "economical" and what is essential for survival. Women working at jobs is an entirely modern conception. If the woman could not provide for herself, then that means she is opting to live in poverty... as a beggar. Or else remarry, IF the age is right. And dowry, which was also very popular for a very long time. So your "economical" argument is very simplistic. Now you mention children - marriage vows are between husband and wife, not children, wife, and husband. Before you condemn sati further, consider the number of women who have abortions every year. Or consider the thousands of baby girls left to die under bridges all over Asia. Is this not the woman's choice; if the woman knows she cannot provide for the child, does she not have a right to kill it before he/she reaches an age where the suffering will be X78? Not to mention the impact of raising a malnourished child. Just like this, sati is the woman's personal choice. She is keeping the marriage vows.

Anger:-
Lakshmana is said to be avatara of Adi Sesha and frequently gets angry.When Bharatha comes rushing towards the forest to ask forgiveness for his mother's act,he comes with the army too.Lakshmana thinks that bhartha has come to kill Rama with the army and asks Rama's permission to wipe out Bharatha and the entire army.

Greed:- Ravana's desire to possess Sita is an example of greed.
When Sita asks for the golden deer,rama actually tries to talk Sita out of it explaining the maya behind this.But Sita Devi is obstinate and wants to have the deer and throws a big tantrum forcing Rama to go after the Golden deer.

For me, somehow, we have yet to draw that line that delineates fiction from the Divine.

Homer's Illiad, is merely seen as a mythological foray of the rich imagination of the human mind, in spinning a good yarn. Ramayana to me, is no different. But unfortunately, for Indians and Hindus in particular, the air of reverance attributed to this epic, takes a fanatical stance that leaves a bad taste in the mouth!!

If only we could view this epic as mere story-telling, and be anti-poddle in our judgement, meaning, the pros and the cons of the discourse, then I do believe its literary position would be no different in the minds of the reader, than say Shakespear!

The human mind is very vulnerable to all sorts of influence and intepretation from both real events to fictitious ones. To say, that Seetha's trial by fire has no impact on the pysche of mere mortals in pushing their womenfolk into the fire, does not hold water. Anything held in divine awe, would certainly be put on a pedestal as a yard of measurement for weak, vulnerable souls such as the masses to emulate.

All I'm asking is that the Ramayana should be treated like any another epic of the world, borne from the fertile imagination of a mere mortal.

Niro: You say

Quote:

---

Homer's Illiad, is merely seen as a mythological foray of the rich imagination of the human mind, in spinning a good yarn

---

Seen by whom? In the days of Ancient Greece, it was seen as a real story of real heroes. There were the Gods involved in that tale as well. The fact that ancient Greek Gods are worshipped no more has made the epic lapse into a richly imaginative mythological tale.

The same is not true with Indians. If the heroes of Ramayana and Mahabharatha had lost their "Divine" status, then perhaps, everyone would view these in the same light as Odessey or Illiad. But the Gods of Ramayana and Mahabharatha are very much alive in the Hindu culture and tradition, and therefore, they have transcended the status of a literary masterpiece to become liturgical masterpieces as well.

The same is true with The Old Testament, or the Four Gospels of the New Testament too. As long as the religion is alive, these would be religous works; perhaps if the religion were obsolete as the religion of ancient Greece, then these too would become epics of imagination.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sbadri99

The same is true with The Old Testament, or the Four Gospels of the New Testament too. As long as the religion is alive, these would be religous works; perhaps if the religion were obsolete as the religion of ancient Greece, then these too would become epics of imagination.

---

Very unnecessary to bring in this statement given the rules of this hub - dunno how this is gonna contribute in value to the original question..

Interesting to see a MODERATOR take sides in debates on a consistent basis(on a forum known for its many conflagrations), is this also an unwritten rule of the hub? Are the senior mods awake? ;)

Come, come H3W: In the first place there is no debate here, for sides to be taken!

And the Hub rules do not say that mere mention of the word religion is taboo!

We are discussing the relativeness of epics with respect to being works of literature as against scripture.

Dear Nirosha Sen,

There is no reason to believe Ramayana never happened. It is 100% true. Please see the following:

http://www.rootsweb.com/~lkawgw/adamsbridge.html

This is the bridge which Ram, Hanuman, & the Vanaras built. Now when you see this photograph, keep in mind that the only other man-made structure visible from outer space is the Great Wall of China.

If you are still having doubts, there is Sita Devi's lotus footprint:

http://www.avatara.org/sita/lotusfoot.html

Do not call Ramayana as myth, ever again, whether unintentional or not. It is NOT a myth, it is 100% true.

Badri,
There was absolutely no need for you to bring in Old Testament blah blah to make your point - I am sure you are mature enough to see the risks involved.

This isnt the first time you are wearing your heart on your sleeve.

Anyway, I wont waste time with you on subjective issues. I've no wish to 'hijack' this thread further and upset the regulars(That said, your dragging in other "Scriptures" is childish though) As a "moderator" you reserve the right to silence any contrary opinion since you're the guy wielding the admin password ;)