Is SC's verdict on reservation good for our development ?

The reservation may be workable up to college / University level
but may not be successful if its extended to IIT or IIMs simplay bcaaz of the SUPREMELY TALENTED / BRILLIANT brains that the poor Dalit boy or girl has to encounter with.

Better not to extend beyond College . Its like forcefully pushing someone who might be an average student and sit amongst elite educated class like IIT or IIM .

To contnue with my previous post, I think beyond a certain level, the individual should compete purely on his own skills / talent . He, she shoudnt depend on quotas. thats unfair.

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Originally Posted by kannannn

[tscii]MADDY, this should answer some of your questions:
http://www.hindu.com/2008/04/11/stor...1156051000.htm

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nobody can justify the inequality reservations are doing......all are equal but some are more equal :) ..........

i'm not against reservations - i'm for reservations in primary schools, colleges, professional courses but not in higher education and that too in premier instituions......i mean, this is spoon feeding to the hilt........if a person has a proper primary/college education how will he ever be a backward person and how can a backward person who has no primary education can get entrance in premier instituions?? whom this law is serving to is my question??

and what about poor people belonging to fwd communities?? why are we not even thinking abt them?

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Originally Posted by podalangai

economic and intellectual equality will significantly reduce caste-based social inequality. Not overnight, but in the fullness of time. :)

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Actually, yes. I agree. In the fullness of time it will. But I am not optimistic about, say even 100 years from now. Even groups that have been traditionally wealthy and influential accept their 'inferiority' and surrender meekly. Could a rich and influential Dalit ever hope to enter the sanctum sanctorum of Guruvayur without causing a scandal?

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Originally Posted by Billgates

To contnue with my previous post, I think beyond a certain level, the individual should compete purely on his own skills / talent . He, she shoudnt depend on quotas. thats unfair.

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yes. He should be given the best of facilities and training and he must have exposure to all the information that he may need for his studies. At the end of the day, he should compete and prove his knowledge and at that point , there should be a level playing field

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Originally Posted by MADDY

thats not a fair arguement......they have been oppressed for centuries and we expect turnaround in decades

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Hmm..no. Actually Maddy I seem to disagree at both ends of the spectrum :D

The development and progress of humankind in the last century has been several times that in the previous centuries. So the "time proportionality" is not something to be argued for. I believe that, with exposure to education and opportunities, it is possible for communities to grow significantly even in a couple of generations.
So I am against the arguments for "permanent" reservations.

Reservations exist because of inequality in opportunity. And we want that inequality to fade away isn't it. As of now there is no denying the need for reservations in India. The only way reservations can be meaningful and gradually phased out is when it reaches the intended benificiaries. Which is why creamy-exclusion is IMO the very core of the reservation.I hope the govt doesn't adopt a piecemeal approach.

The trouble is, the SC has not made the exclusion a necessary clause for the implementation. It is only a directive to the government. There is a danger that the cabinet may decide to ignore this and it may not amount to breaking the SC judgement.
Needless to say there is a srong political lobby for not excluding the 'creamy layer' (from CPI,RJD,PMK etc.). :mad:

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

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Originally Posted by MADDY

thats not a fair arguement......they have been oppressed for centuries and we expect turnaround in decades

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Hmm..no. Actually Maddy I seem to disagree at both ends of the spectrum :D

The development and progress of humankind in the last century has been several times that in the previous centuries. So the "time proportionality" is not something to be argued for. I believe that, with exposure to education and opportunities, it is possible for communities to grow significantly even in a couple of generations.
So I am against the arguments for "permanent" reservations.

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True ! But the expectation of some people - to have a turn around within 2 decades after nearly 3000 years of systematic oppression doesnt seem even remotely logical. I thought that's what Maddy was trying to disagree.

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Originally Posted by sriranga

Tamizh medium students are at a disadvantage when it comes to engineering education where the medium is english.
your examples are exceptions to the rule. ( You could've done even better if you had studied in english medium.)
if you can't agree on this, i don't think its worth discussing any further.

athathaan, people like Narayamurthy are telling the government to improve standard of primary education.

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For the 1st semester, to an extent, what you've said is true. However, Thamizh Medium students spring up after that and have TOPPED classes and I have several examples from RECT. In addition, among the rest, majority of those got admitted / excelled had only +2 in English medium but till 10th in Thamizh medium.

If someone is strong in Math & Science, medium change doesn't matter, IMO, at least for engineering.

I am not sure of the number 3000 btw but let's not go down that slippery path. With a well targeted and implemented system India should have reversed the conditions considerably in these 60 years.

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Originally Posted by MADDY

PR, this judgement is like decision to build flyovers for pedestrians..........when they dont even have a cycle to ride on a proper road, how is flyover going to help them? how many OBCs and BCs have been given proper primary education?

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I think Podalangai has answered this point eloquently.

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Originally Posted by MADDY

this reservation is going to benefit only the rich "backward" people......

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...:confused2: eh ! This is exactly what the creamy-layer clause is designed to prevent.

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Originally Posted by MADDY

this 27%, wasted by undeserving ppl., is going to hurt the open category big time.....

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Undeserving !? The arguments for "pure" meritocracy apart, this notion that students securing seats through reservation do not "deserve" them - in that sense that, they will not live up to the standards - is itself objectionable.

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Originally Posted by podalangai

It brings home to them that there is a point to trying to top your class, there is a point to trying to get into a college, because people like you can make something of themselves.

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:exactly:

podalangai, a question for you: Is the SC directive binding on the government or not ? I guess it is not but I am not sure. So is there a risk that the government can conveniently go ahead and implement the reservations without adhering to creamy-layer exclusion ?

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

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Originally Posted by MADDY

this 27%, wasted by undeserving ppl., is going to hurt the open category big time.....

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Undeserving !? The arguments for "pure" meritocracy apart, this notion that students securing seats through reservation do not "deserve" them - in that sense that, they will not live up to the standards - is itself objectionable.

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ayyo saami, naa appadi sollave illa.....wat i meant was, 100% of those 27% seats are going to be filled by the creamy layer.........they surely are undeserving.......