Thiru,
Similarly Arjuna's ego was devasted by Maha Paramathma Maha Iswar in the form a Hunter, during the same vanavasa.
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Thiru,
Similarly Arjuna's ego was devasted by Maha Paramathma Maha Iswar in the form a Hunter, during the same vanavasa.
"thiru" :
//In mahabharatha there is a sequence when Hanuman meets Bheema.. Can you elaborate on the significance of this meeting?//
// Also, I read somewhere that Hanuman and bheema were almost like brothers (hanuman was born to vayu & bheema was born by the grace of vayu//
Hanuman being a Vishnu-bhaktha... used to volunteer... to correct if any Vishnu-devotee... goes out of the way either by thoughts or actions.
And He felt... Bheema being a Vishnu-bhaktha... was slipping towards a wrong direction of... Head-Weight... which is one of the Greatest Inimical qualities to be curbed off... for any Devotee.
So Hanuman intentionally lied down across the path by which Bheema used to pass by for taking daily bath.... prior to Pooja.
On seeing an Old Monkey obstructing the way...
"Hae You Monkey keep off the way"... Bheema shouted...
"Oh.. Being very old ... I am unable to lift-off my Tail... If you want your way... You can make way Yourselves... by shifting my tail out of your way."... Replied Hanuman.
Angered by these words.. Bheema kicked off Hanuman's Tail... He felt much painful as if he had kicked a Rock... Then he tried to Lift it for shifting... but Could not...
Then Bheema became furious... " Oh You are a Magician... playing with me?"... saying so he lifted the Gadhayudham... which hit back... Bheema himself... making him .. bewildered..
Then Bheema asked .."Hae Monkey tell me why you are delaying my Vishnu-pooja?"
"Oh!... Vishnu-pooja... can you perform carrying such a HEAVY-WEIGHT on your Head?"
" What heavy Weight?"
"Ego... Greatest Obstruction in the Devotional path... for any devotee... Even though You are performing Pooja sincerely to Lord Vishnu daily... it will not fetch you the due result... nor you can get the Grace of God... until you think you are great... If you feel you are Great .. show your might with me in any way ... either by Knowledge or by Physical-Might"
"Oh .. You are not an ordinary Monkey as I was thinking of you so cheap... then I thought perhaps you are a Magician in the disguise of a Monkey... that too wrong I have understood now... because...
You showed me your physical-might first... now you are quoting Dharma-sasthras too... which proves that you cannot be just any ordinary person.... since you could OVER-POWER even me... the Invincible warrior.. in both the ways.. Please tell me who you are.. and why you are coming in my way?"... asked Bheema
" Oh I see.. If I show God here... will you worship Him?"... saying so Hanuman showed... Lord Vishnu... in his Chest.
Bheema was amazed to see the same Vishnu idol there.... which he used to worship daily.
Then Bhema realised that it as not just a Monkey but a Mahaan...
So Bheema shed tears and prostrated at the feet of Hanuman... Immediately Hanuman picked him up and embraced...
Then Vayu-deva came there and said... " I am happy to see both of my Sons... you brothers... have come together"... and He blessed them
Raghu
//...Yes, Lord Krishna wanted get rid of bheema's ego, so during the Pandavas's vanavasa,
he resquests Hanuman, to take an avatar as a very old & weak monkey, so hanuman ji did
and was sitting , under a tree, bheema came in contact with him, and he had to cross hanuman ji,
bheema full of ego, starting saying how greater warrior he was and this old monkey does not know him and respect him,
all hanuman ji said was, I am an oldand weak monkey, I am unable to get up, please move my tail and go pass me, bheema thougt that a greatest warrior like him was being insulted by an old monkey.
so he got angry and tried to move the Old monkey's tail and he could not even move it at all, he realsied that this monkey is indded a mahaatma, and appologises for his sin and hanuman ji shows his true form and blesses bheema.//
Hanuman NEVER TOOK REBIRTH... nor Re-incarnation... the so called Awathara...
...but He is a CHIRANJEEVI... living ETERNALLY... so blessed by Rama.
Sudhaama,
Thanks.. but according to some versions, bheema goes to the forest in search of Sauganthika flower which Draupadi asks for...
"Thiru"
//. but according to some versions, bheema goes to the forest in search of Sauganthika flower which Draupadi asks for..//
Yes...Bheema goes out in search of Saugandhika Fllower for Draupathi ...
But his meet with Hanuman... was not in that Context ...If I remember correct.
Dear Sudhama sir, pls respond to my PM as and when time permits, Regarding your above post, as far as I know this incident did take place when bheema goes in search of Saugandhika Fllower, pardon me if I am wrongQuote:
Originally Posted by Sudhaama
Can you elaborate a bit more abou the incident in which Arjuna's ego was blown by Lord Maha Iswar?
thanks in advance.
"Raghu"
// .... as far as I know this incident did take place when bheema goes in search of Saugandhika Fllower, pardon me if I am wrong //
Mr.Raghu & Mr. Thiru
Yes .. After re-thinking I recollected that you are CORRECT.
// Can you elaborate a bit more abou the incident in which Arjuna's ego was blown by Lord Maha Iswar?//
Yes that is one of the THOUGHT-PROVOKING parts of Bharatham...
... conveying Rich-Moral behind...TAUGHT BY LORD SIVA... to Arjuna..
... applicable to anyone amongst the Mankind.... ETERNALLY.
I will take up that ... after Completing the Ones... already on Hand
Thanks Sudhama sir
As far as I remember, Maha Iswar comes as a Hunter in the Jungle, Maha Iswar and Arjuna kills a wild boar at the same instant, Arjuna picks up an Argument with mahaeswar, as to whom the boar belongs to, soon this develops into physical fight, arjuna used all his arrows, but failed miserably(huge blow for his archery skills and the ego related to this), he then picked up Gadhayudha fight, again failed miserable, and so son, at least Arjuna Tries Mal Yutham with Maheswar, when the Lord Hughed him Arjuna could not Move an inch, he realised this was no ordinary Man, and Lord Shiva appears in front of him and grants him a boon in the form of an asthram, what was the asthram?
thanks
I heard the story differently.
Arjuna was a famous fighter, and he attained fame by fighting many great demigods, including even Lord Siva. After fighting and defeating Lord Siva in the dress of a hunter, Arjuna pleased the lord and received as a reward a weapon called pashupata-astra.
Nitai
When Arjuna was hunting in the forest, so Lord Siva appeared before him.
A boar was killed in hunting and Lord Siva claimed that “I have done this killing, ” and Arjuna said, “No, I have done this.” So there was controversy and because of this there was fight between Lord Siva and Arjuna.
In the mahabharatha, Lord Krishna asks Yiduishtra to go and get knowledge of dharma from Bhishma.Bhishma is one of the 12 people in the world who is supposed to know about all forms of dharma.Yudishtra goes and asks him a lot of questions on Hindu dharma and bhishma then says the Vishnu sahasranamam and answers Yudishtra's questions.
This is also one more very important part of Mahabharatha where Hindu dharma can be learnt.
Dear Nitai,Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitai
This is very hilarious, no offence meant, but how can Paramatama Maha Iswar, he is Combination of lord Vishnu and Lord bramha, this is CLEARLY shown in ShivaLingam, Shivratri is a symbol of this!
This act was planned by Lord Krishna to get rid of Arjuna's ego, if Arjuna does win the battle , logicaly speaking his ego would reach
unlimited level, wouldn't you agree?, so what's the moral value behind this?
Please Do tell me where you heard this story, because it is pathetic, Pasupathasthra was attained by Lord Krishna and Arjuna, when they went to Kailash to do a pooja towards Maha Iswar.
Please note my post was never INTENDED to offend you, it's just people just make up their own interpretation of the story, who ever told you this must have misunderstood this.
SUPERIORITY.. amongst Gods.. especially SIVA and VISHNU?
Dear Mr. badri99,
Please Narrate in detail about this Episode of Siva-Arjuna quarrel over a Boar... and further Arjuna's fetching Pasupathasthra from Lord Siva..
Dear Mr. Raghu,
In Mahabharatha... there is not much room of Superiority amongst various Vedic- Gods.
In fact... it alleviates all the doubts about such probable Confusions and clarifies on the possible misconceptions as also drives off all the Surmises.
Almost all the Gods denoted by Vedas .. take part in Mahabharatha... in a Dramatic-Story Form... to establish the Sense of Vedas ... by action depicting the Vedic- Gospels as also through words uttered by its various Characters .
And further too... the most intricacies are explained in Bhagawad- Geetha... a Scientific- Gospel ... applicable for any Global Human irrespective of Religion.
We can say a lot lot more... on Mahabharatha which STRESSES and establishes..
.. the. IMPORTANCE AND NECESSITIES of BROAD-MINDENESS in Life
... especially being a Rich Subject relevant with Morality coupled with Wisdom.
Vedic-Religion... describes every God.... HIGHLY ... even Indra and Vayu...
... then should we discriminate Maha-Deva and Maha-Vishnu?
Rudram ... a part of Veda... intended to exclusively praise the Glory of Siva ... praises Vishnu also in between...
... while Purusha-Sooktha.. another part of Veda... relevant to exclusively to praise Vishnu... praises Lord Siva too. ..
... even amongst such Vishnu-praising terminologies... it says...
SA BRAHMA... SA SIVA... SA INDRA... SA-AKSHARA... PARAMA- SWARAAT.
... which means.... "the same Vishnu... is also Siva or Brahma or Indra... or an Invisible Abstract-power eternal... Supreme... (according to individuals outlook and FREE- OPTION)
So we should not indulge in such discriminatory approach at all.
... but the Great Sense-Values and Rich- beauty in every bit of its FERTILE content of Mahabharatha the Eternal Human- Gospel.
You are perhaps... the best example for such Broad-mindedness..
... By name Raghu... You are Ramadas.
... By Awatar... You are Krishna-das.
.. By Faith... SIVADAS...
Well.... .THREE IN ONE... Nice and Happy to know.... Keep it up..
I will speak more on Siva - Vishnu relations...as also on the great moral- lessons behind this episode...
... after hearing from Mr. Badri 99.
Dear Sudhama SirQuote:
Originally Posted by Sudhaama
Yes I agree with you completely, you can virtually call the Paramathama (Ultimate Truth) by various names, and forms! here our friend said that Arjuna won the battle over the Paramathama, which can never be true!, if an Atma can win over the Paramatha, what is the point of this Paramatha the abstract class?, besides Arjuna's ego (thinking that he is the best archer in universe) was the subject when Arjuna Confronts Maha Deva, so if Arjuna defeats Maha Deva, would his ego, get any lesser?,
Not at all, sir, if we indulge in such act, which means we still have not understood the ParamatmaQuote:
Originally Posted by Sudhaama
thank you
Om NamaShivaya
Quotes:
At the birth of Arjuna Kunti heard a heavenly voice declare as follows : "Oh ! Kunti ! your son will be equal to Siva in prowess and unconquerable just as Indra is. After defeating all the Kings he will perform the A'svamedha thrice. He will please Siva and get the great weapon called Pasupata from him.
I think this is from Mahabharata
MUKA - An asura. This demon once went to Arjuna who was engaged in penance in the forests. He had assumed the form of a boar 'and Arjuna killed him. At once Siva appeared there in the guise of a forester and contended that the boar was killed by him. A quarrel ensued which ended in a fight between them. In the end Siva appeared before Arjuna in his real form and granted him the missile Pasupata.
PASUPATA. II. The missile of Siva. Arjuna during his exile in the forests performed penance to propitiate Siva and got this missile from him.
All these quotes are from the Puranic Encyclopedia. Sometimes it is unclear from where they are, which sastra.
Regarding Arjuna's ego. Well, Krishna was always guiding Arjuna even the Bhagavad-gita was spoken to him so seemingly to us Arjuna in his action has an ahankar but actually because he is surrendered to Krishna he is situated in his real ego as an eternal servant of Krishna. This can be confirmed to you by any member of 4 bona fide Vaishnava sampradayas.
Krishna might also fought with Siva and he got the pasupata astra but it seems that this happened in some other Dvapara yuga.
Sri Krishna Svayam Bhagavan ki Jay.
In the Rg veda it is clearly said that of all Gods Vishnu is the highest and Agni is the lowest. Therefore, there is hierarchy of different Gods some are like ministers and there is one president - Vishnu. E.g. when there are problems with demons - just remember - the demigods always go to the shore of the milk-ocean to seek the help of Lord Vishnu.
But, superior than Vishnu is Krishna. Here are some sastric quotes if you are followers of satra think about them.
iisvarah paramah krsnah
sac-cid-aananda-vigrahah
anaadir aadir govindah
sarva-kaarana-kaaranam
"The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Krsna, who has a body of
eternity, knowledge, and bliss. He has not beginning, for He is the
beginning of everything. He is the cause of all causes."
(Brahma-samhitaa 5.1)
yasyaika-nisvasita-kaalam athaavalambya
jiivanti loma-vila-jaa jagad-anda-naathaah
visnur mahaan sa iha yasya kalaa-viseso
govindam aadi-purusam tam aham bhajaami
"The Mahaa-Visnu, into whom all the innumerable universes enter
and from whome they come forth again simply by His breathing
process, is a plenary expansion of Krsna. Therefore I worship
Govinda, Krsna, the cause of all causes." (Brahma-samhitaa 5.48)
So, what do you need to understand Krishna's position?
"The form you are seeing with your transcendental eyes cannot be
understood simply by studying the Vedas, nor by undergoing serious penances, nor by charity, nor by worship. It is not by these means that one can see Me AS I AM."
"My dear Arjuna, only by undivided devotional service can I be
understood as I am, standing before you, and can thus be seen
directly. Only in this way can you enter into the mysteries of My
understanding." (Bhagavad-gita 11.53-54)
CONCLUSION:
Bhagavad-gita 7.7 Knowledge of the Absolute
mattah parataram nanyat
kincid asti dhananjaya
mayi sarvam idam protam
sutre mani-gana iva
O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me [KRISHNA]. Everything rests upon Me [KRISHNA], as pearls are strung on a thread.
The Mahabharata had described the meeting between Hanuman and Bhima. Once, while Arjuna was seeking celestial weapons, the remaining Pandavas wandered to Badarikasrama high in the Himalayas. Suddenly, the Alakananda River carried to Draupadi a beautiful and fragrant thousand-petaled lotus flower. Draupadi was captivated by its beauty and scent. "Bhima, this lotus flower is so beautiful. I should offer it to Yudhisthira Maharaja. Could you get me a few more? We could take some back to our hermitage in Kamyaka."
Bhima grabbed his club and charged up the hill where no mortals were permitted. As he ran, he bellowed, frightening elephants and lions, and he uprooted trees as he pushed them aside. Caring not for the ferocious beasts of the jungle, he climbed a steep mountain until his progress was blocked by a huge monkey who was lying across the path, "Why are you making so much noise and scaring all the animals. Just sit down and eat some fruit." "Move aside," ordered Bhima, for etiquette forbade him to step over the monkey. The monkey's reply? "I am too old to move. Jump over me." Bhima, becoming angry, repeated his order. But the monkey, again pleading the weakness of old age, requested Bhima to simply move his tail aside. Unlimitedly powerful Bhima grabbed the tail and tried but failed. Amazed, he respectfully inquired as to the monkey's identity and was overjoyed to learn that he had met his brother Hanuman, for both Bhima and Hanuman were sons of Vayu. Hanuman first embraced Bhima and showed him the huge form by which he leaped to Lanka. He then offered Bhima the following blessings. "I shall also remain present on the flag of your brother Arjuna. When you roar like a lion on the battlefield, my voice will join with yours to strike terror in the hearts of your enemies. You will be victorious and will regain your kingdom."
A small clarification. There is a promise of Krishna to (actually, everybody) who take His shelter. And this is the reason why Arjuna defeated Lord Siva.
In the Bhagavad-gita (Bg. 9.31) Krishna says:
Kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktah pranasyati:
"My devotee is never vanquished."
Hare Krishna.
Nitai
Dear Mr. Nitai,
You are going far-away from the Topic Mahabharatha... There is no Question here... Which God is Superior...
When such a Question indirectly raised its hood.. I had already silenced it ...
.. ..by means of the Broad-sense of TRUE-VEDIC-SPIRIT...
//In the Rg veda it is clearly said that of all Gods Vishnu is the highest and Agni is the lowest. Therefore, there is hierarchy of different Gods some are like ministers and there is one president - Vishnu. E.g. when there are problems with demons - just remember - the demigods always go to the shore of the milk-ocean to seek the help of Lord Vishnu//.
It is Not correct to say that any Vedic-Scripture indicates "Agni" as the LOWEST GOD.... No... Not at all.
But Contrarily all the Scriptures UNANIMOUSLY declare that the PUREST GOD-FORM prevalent in all the seven Worlds... including Earth... is AGNI...
Basic authority for all the Scriptures... is Vedas... within which the Most important section is... Purusha-sooktham... which asserts... that all the HIGHEST MIGHTS AND GODS... emanated from the Holy-Face of the... Sarva-Deva- Aikya-Swaroopa Viraat- Purusha- Vishnu...
.... which also asserts... " MUKHAADH INDHRAHSCHA... "AGNIHSCHA". ----..AJAAYATHA.
... ..which means that "Agni emanated from His Face.... the Holiest of Hollies."
But Agni is specifically mentioned in the Scriptures that ... coupled with His Wife SWAHA-DEVI..
AGNI... is the most HUMBLE-SERVICE-MAN for all the Gods as a MEDIA- Agent between the Receiver Gods and Offering Devotees. anywhere in the seven worlds including Earth.
That is why we offer all our Homa-Offerings in the Agni-Kunda...
... start Chanting... Ohm AGNAYAE SWAAHAA ANNAAYAE IDHANNA MAMA...
... meaning..." Primarily I offer you this Aahuthi My offer- Anna (Food)"... which please you receive first
...and the subsequent Aahuthis ... let reach the specific God whom I call after naming your wife SWAAHAA.- Devi
Accordingly follows....OHM KAESAVAAYAH SWAAHAA KAESAAVAAYAE IDHANNA MAMA. .. and so on.
We have to understand this sense... SIMILAR TO HANUMAN... who can fetch the Greatest Boons sought by Devotees from Gods...
... just in the capacity as MESSENGER IN BETWEEN.... the Two Remotes
... Hanuman is so powerful... and GREAT-PRIVILEGED.... even though very HUMBLE..
// But, superior than Vishnu is Krishna. Here are some sastric quotes if you are followers of satra think about them.//
None of us here ... are interested to the Ultimate-Sense of Vedic- Spirit.. the SUPREME.
... but only its BROAD-OUTLOOK. of Reality.. which alone is applicable for Common-Man's Life..
... which SENSE... is the ESSENCE OF MAHABHAARATHA...
Your ARGUMENT differentiating Krishna and Vishnu... is FUNNY... which is an unfounded PAROCHIAL OUTLOOK...
But if you feel so .. please carry on Accordingly.. APPLICABLE TO YOU ONLY...
. Please DON'T PREACH US. ... Because we follow our individual Acharyas... which are well-defined needing no more intervention nor RIDICULOUS INTERPRETATIONS of anyone's own..
Do you know that... to the Siva-Devotee Arjuna... Krishna showed HIMSELF AS SIVA... on whom Arjuna performed decorations and Arjuna... believing as Siva....
... and was AMAZED to note on the next day... the same decorations and Flowers offered as Archana on Krishna's body...... were found exactly at the same manner and locations... at the Siva-linga ... he used to worship daily. He noticed it as if he performed at the Linga Himself on the previuous day too.
Then Arjuna understood the True-Sense of Devotional-Spirit of Vedic- sense..
If you know it... please elaborate here... instead of "Out of the way Dry Arguments."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitai
NOV, the post made by the hubber is offensive in nature.
Please kindly delete it.
Sudhaama wrote
Dear Sudhaama: Why bring me into this?Quote:
Dear Mr. badri99,
Please Narrate in detail about this Episode of Siva-Arjuna quarrel over a Boar... and further Arjuna's fetching Pasupathasthra from Lord Siva.. .. after hearing from Mr. Badri 99.
In any case, the story has already been discussed! What more can I add? The episode of Arjuna-Siva fight has been immortalised in the Kirataarjuniya.
On the advice of Veda Vyasa and Indra, Arjuna undertakes penance to propitiate Lord Siva and obtain His Grace. To test Arjuna's skill and sincerity, Siva enacts a drama. Accordingly, a large wild boar comes rushing towards where Arjuna is performing his Siva Puja. Seeing the boar rush towards him, and although bound by a vow of non-violence during the period of the penance, Arjuna seizes his bow and arrows when a Bhil or a Kirata (hunter) comes into the scene. He is accompanied by his wife (which is rather surprising to Arjuna, as women rarely joined their husbands on hunts in the jungle) and followed by a retinue of fierce warriors.
The Kirata accosts Arjuna and tells him, "Hey, you, that is my boar. Beware if you do anything to it."
Arjuna, who had taken up arms in defence is now stung by the casual way in which the hunter speaks to him. Though he realized the hunter probably did not know he was the famous Arjuna, his ego was stung and he at once shot an arrow through the boar, killing it. At the exact same moment, an arrow of the Kirata too pierces the boar and there ensues an argument as to who killed the boar, and therefore who it belongs to.
This develops into a fight and Arjuna finds he is no match to the Kirata. This is when his pride is quelled. He recollects within, "Krishna, what a strange drama is this? Whos is this Kirata, a mere hunter, who can vanquish even me? Is this really you who have come in this guise? Indeed, this must be your drama."
When that humility comes into him, he turns around to see the Kirata, but sees in his place, Siva and Parvati. Siva blesses him and gives him the Paashupatastra.
A good story. But as with all good stories, what is the moral, the lesson?
Arjuna was doing one-pointed penance to Siva. If his penance were truly one-pointed, he could not have failed to recognize the very object of his devotion come in another guise. But because his ego was still blinding him, he only saw the Kirata, and not the true entity behind him, namely, Lord Siva. When the scales of ego fell from his eyes, he had the true vision of the Lord. Thus, if we too abandon our exagerrated notions of ourselves, if we develop a humility that is befitting our spiritual pursuit, we too would have the darshan (vision) of the Lord.
Again, the Lord may choose to come in any form, and not always the one we are expecting Him in. Our prejudices or narrow beliefs may call for one God as superior to another! But as long as such divisiveness exists, the Lord will most certainly not be perceived. When we commit the grave sin of dividing into many that which is indivisible and akanda, how are we to be blessed with the Vision Divine? So the wise say.
Nitai: This is a Forum where people of many religions, faiths and ideas come together. While you certainly have freedom of speech, faith and expression, sometimes, as is evident above, to force one opinion on everyone is not welcome. I am sure you'll recognize how insensitive this can be to people who do not subscribe to your views.Quote:
Originally Posted by a.ratchasi
Therefore kindly desist from such posts in the future, considering the wide diversity of our audience.
Nitai: A clarification of your clarification. The word "pranashyati" does not mean vanquished. It means destroyed. Therefore, Na me bhaktyah pranashyati means "My devotee never perishes".Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitai
Thanks, Badri!
Hi Friends
Let us continue discussing Mahabharatha.
Sudhaama sir and Badri can elucidate on the dharma teaching which Bhishma gave to Yudishtra on his bed of arrows.It is here that Bhishma recites the Vishnu Sahasranamam.
A good site which explains Vishnu Sahasranamam is
http://home.comcast.net/~chinnamma/
The author follows vishishta-dvaita philosophy,i guess but it is good for followers of other philosophies too.Other Tamil Vaishnavite works are also present in the website.
When Bhisma is lying on the bed of arrows, the Pandavas along with Krishna go to him and on Krishna's advise seek to learn Dharma from him. This forms a part of the Shanti Parva of the Mahabharatha. To discuss this as Viggop requests would probably take a good long time, but I am put in mind of an incident.
When Bhishma begins his discourse on Dharma, Draupadi laughs out aloud. Yudhistra and the others are scandalised that she would do such a disrespectful thing in front of Venerable Bhisma. But Bhisma asks them to hold their peace and asks Draupadi" Daughter, you would not have done something like this without reason. Why did you laugh?"
Draupadi replied, "Grandfather, that my husbands are virtuous is known to the whole world. It is because of their virtue, their adherence to Dharma that we won the war. They have no need for your lecture on Dharma. I find it funny that you are lecturing to them about Dharma, yet, you kept your mouth shut when I was being disrobed in the Kaurava court. When I appealed to you, in distress, you kept quiet. That was the time and place when your lecture and admonishing were most required. The Kauravas where the one who most required your advice.
You chose to keep quiet then, now you are lecturing to people who don't need it. Tell me, isn't this funny?"
Bhisma replied, "You are right, Panchali. But at that time, I had eaten the Kaurava food. My blood was filled with their Adharma, and I could not raise my voice. Now, after your husband Arjuna has riddled my body with his arrows, all that bad blood has drained away, and now I am in a position to speak of Dharma. You are right, your five husbands need no lesson in Dharma, yet I speak so that others may learn through them."
The discourse of Bhishma on Dharma is full of insight. In fact, as some learned and wise men have remarked, it shows us the change in Bhishma's own thought process and his own individual philosophy. As I said, since it would be too much of an effort to reproduce in toto Bhisma's discussions on Dharma, I will try and provide a synopsis as it were.
Among the important things Bhishma speaks is Truth. Here is an interesting thing in this. This same Bhisma vowed as a young man that he would remain celibate. It was the terrible vow that even gave him his name. When later on, his step-mother Satyavati suggests to him that he marry Vichitravirya's widows, he reiterates his vow and declares
"The earth may give up fragrance, and water its own flavor. Thus light may give up form, air may give up the quality of touch, the sun its light, and smoke-bannered fire its heat, ether may give up sound, the moon may give up the coolness of its rays, Indra, slayer of Vritra, may renounce his courage, the king of dharma may give up dharma, but I shall never resolve in any way to abandon the truth."
Wonderful and powerful sentiments, yet, a more careful analysis shows that he is more concerned about his own adherence to truth than the consequences of such an adherence. Even if the world be destroyed, I will stick to truth.
However, much later, mellowed down by years and experience, lying on the bed of arrows, a different Bhishma speaks,
"Speaking truth is righteous. Nothing is higher than truth. O Bharata, I shall speak to you that which is very hard to understand on Bhuloka. Truth is not to be spoken and falshood is to be spoken in a case where falsity becomes truth and truth becomes falsehood. An immature person is bewildered in such a case where truth is not firmly established. Determining truth and falsehood, one then knows morality."
He traces the thin line between Dharma and Adharma. As is evident in the war, the only person with competent knowledge on the distinction between the two was Krishna, and Bhishma follows Krishna's own examples in explaining this to the Pandavas.
He quotes 2 examples, of the hunter Balaka and the sage Kaushika to illustrate his point.
If anyone is interested in these 2 examples, let me know, I will post them seperately.
As it is, this post has become too long!!!
Continuing Bhishma's discourse on Dharma
Bhishma finally concludes saying
"One must resolve the issue of Dharma Sankata (Dharmic conundrums) by reasoning. Morality is that which prevents injury to living beings. That is the conclusion.
Morality (dharma) comes from the act of sustaining (dharana). Thus authorities say that morality sustains living beings. So that which provides such sustenance is dharma. That is the conclusion."
Although scriptures are definitely an authority on Dharma, not all situations are envisaged by them. In all such cases, the guiding principle, as explained by Bhishma, is to apply the Golden Rule:
Is this action or speech of benefit to people, or does it harm them? If it benefits, it is Dharma, if it harms then it is Adharma.
The same sentiment is also echoed by Vyasa, who declares that
"Parapokara punyaya Paapaya Parapeedanam"
To help another is Punya; to cause harm to another is Papa"
Hi Badri
Since,everything is part of Mahabharatha,I dont think it is wrong to discuss dharma fully here.It need not be done in a single post.We can take own time but let us discuss it since lot of people will benefit by it.This discussion on Bhishma's discourse will be good for this thread, i think
If anyone has objections to this and if they feel that discussing the story is better,then we can abandon the idea and continue discussing other stories in the mahabharatha.
The bhAghavataM says that there are only twelve men in the whole world who know the ins and outs of dharma in all its subtlety. These twelve are: BrahmA, the Creator; Narada, the roving sage; Lord Siva; Lord SubrahmaNya; the sage Kapila; Manu the law-giver; the boy-devotee Prahlada; King Janaka; Bhishma; King Bali; the boy-sage Suka, the reciter of the bhAgavatam; and Yama, the Lord of Death and Dispenser of Justice:
Yudhishtira asks six fundamental questions to Bhishma:
· What is the One Supreme God?
· What is the One Ultimate Resort?
· What is the One by worshipping which man can attainin everything that is good for him?
· What is the One whose praise by man will give him everything that is good for him?
· What dharma is considered to be the greatest of all dharmas?
· What is the One by the memory of which man may be released from the cycle of births and deaths
viggop
Actually Yudhishtra asks several questions. The 6 you have listed form a part of the Vishnu Sahasranama.
He also asks
"How should a person, who wants to abide by dharma, behave?
I seek to understand this, O wise one, so kindly explain, O best of Bharatas.
The bits I quoted are in answer to this question of Yudhistra.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbadri99
Dear Badri, thanks for the post above, though the moral behind your post on Arjuna's clash with Maha deva and one I posted about the same issue based on Ramanand Saagar's Krishna series, though the moral is same, stories really contradicts from scholars to scholars, which is very confusing for us, but as far as we learn the moral behind it,
Dear Niti
I have read couple of books from ISKON (International Society For Krishna Consiousness) , by his divine grace Sripala Bhakthivedananta Swami Prapuda, he nor even in the geeta it is NEVER DECLARED as lord Krishna being GOD,lord Krishna is an avatar of Lord Vishnu, this Krishna Avatar is Lord Vishnu's 9th avatar,with Kalki avatar yet to come, in Kali yuga(present yuga).
In Gita the Ultimate truth is refered as Iswar, or Parama Iswar or Maha Iswar, in Hinduism Lord Shiva or Maha Deva is referred as the Ultimate truth, the Param atama, Do you know what Shiva Lingam Represents?
Dear Mr. Raghu,
I strongly OBJECT to the Trend you are carrying by this latest posting...
Is this a thread on Mahabharatha.. a Topic on Epic.. or on Religion or Philosophy....??
I am very sorry to note you are going far and far away from the Thread-Tille.. you have initiated.
When we deal with Epics... we should deal with the Characters involved . along with the events relevant... which leads us towards the inherent Morals... the Lessons for Life... applicable to any Human.
That is how Mahabharatha is one of the Epics... a part of Indian-Culture and Heritage ... irrespective of Religion or Philosophy..
Even the Christian and Muslim citizens of India.... study Mahabharatha and Ramayana,... only in such a Healthy aspect on Indian-Culture of Morality-Study....
...aptly inculcated at the Student age.... towards a purposeful Life of Humanity.
The Elementary-stage in Life is Morality... which we get highly from Epics...
Epics no doubt subtly deal with God too... even though apart from Religion...
But we don't go deep into such 2nd and higher plane.. Rather Religion deals on detailing and analysing God...What Who.. Why and How aspects... relating the Creator and the Creations.
Then the highest Stage... Philosophy (Veda-Antham) ... which deals with mutual relations amongst various Gods and God-mights... as well as the intricate relations (by Spiritualism) between the God and Man... rather Jeevaathma and Paramathma.
Now Mr. Raghu... please tell me... are you discussing Religion the second higher stage ... or the Philosophy the 3rd and highest stage.... drifting far away from the fundamental stage of Epics...
... the Life-Moral... which ONLY IS APPLICABLE HERE.
You are unnecessarily provoking a Controversy often... on the God-Supremacy even within one and the same Religion... which is out of the Topic here... being an Epic.
When you say Maheswar is supreme... it provokes another person to negate your conclusion and declare stating No No.. Maha-Vishnu is supreme... If any Bengali sees both of your Arguments ... he will say... No No.. Neither Maheswar nor Maha-Vishnu is Supreme... but only Maha-Kali. Is it what you are leading us all to?
If you want to talk on Philosophy... so called Vedantham... please start another Thread on it.. where too... without any denigration to anyboy's individual Faith and Beliefs .. I will participate deeply and highly... enlightening many of the points... as laid down by our Great Acharyas like Sarvasri Sankara, Ramanuja, Madhwa, Krishna-Chaithanya, Tukaram, Thulsidas, Ramalinga-Vallalaar and so on...some of which news or message you may not be aware of..
If you bellieve Maheswar is Supreme God .. Well You can have it so... as your personal-Faith and belief...
Please don't PREACH HERE SO.. again and again...DRUM-BEATING... Vociferously .. anymore
Because it is far and far... out of the SCOPE of this Thread ...Mahabhaaratha... an Epic.. Greatest Lesson for Humanity... irrespective of any Religion and Philosophy.. .. Internatiolly too.
So I reiterate... henceforth we should confine our discussions only to Mahabharatha... ensuring our Thoughts on its Characters, Events and the Messages behind ... USEFUL FOR OUR LIFE.
Am I wrong to say so?
Pls stick to the topic rather than digressing about religious beliefs and stuff... We will be forced to edit some of your posts if this goes on...
Dear Mr. badri,
Thanks for honouring my request... by posting the episode of Arjuna-Siva quarrel over a Boar.
If I remember correct... Lord Siva comes in disguise as a hunter... and aims at the same Boar which is Arrow-targeted by arjuna also at the same time.... but without the knowledge Arjuna... since the Hunter-Siva was hiding behind a bush.
When both the arrows stuck on the Boar simultaneously...there arose a dispute... as to who had the due claim preferably... Then they entered into a fight... to prove who the greater warrior
Finally...Arjuna gets defeated... and Lord Siva... gives his Devotee Arjuna ... Darsana...
Subsequently Arjuna went to Kailasa... and with the blessings of Siva... he recives the PAASUPATHAA-ASTHRAM... from Siva Himself.
... which was very useful for him to win in the Kurushethra war
Am I correct ?
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudhaama
Dear Sudhama sir,
You are exactly right, this is excatly what it is says in ISKON books of Bhavad Gita, and Ramand Saagar's Krishna series.
But at whom did Arjuna use the Pasupathasthram?
Certainly not Karna was it?
Dear Sudhama sir & thiru,
I shall reply to your PM very shortly, I am NOt at all offended by your posts.
Another interesting incident I want to discuss is Lord Krishna's encounter with Shiva Bhaktha Banasur, If any one of you want to start that up, pls do, else I shall start it shortly
Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.63 Summary
This chapter describes the battle between Lord Kṛṣṇa and Lord Śiva, as well as Śiva's glorification of Kṛṣṇa after the Lord had cut off Bāṇāsura's arms.
When Aniruddha did not return from Śoṇitapura, His family and friends passed the four months of the rainy season in extreme distress. When they finally heard from Nārada Muni how Aniruddha had been captured, a large army of the best Yādava warriors, under Kṛṣṇa's protection, set off for Bāṇāsura's capital and laid siege to it. Bāṇāsura fiercely opposed them with his own army of equal size. To help Bāṇāsura, Lord Śiva, accompanied by Kārtikeya and a horde of mystic sages, took up arms against Balarāma and Kṛṣṇa. Bāṇa began fighting against Sātyaki, and Bāṇa's son fought against Sāmba. All the demigods assembled in the sky to witness the battle. With His arrows Lord Kṛṣṇa harassed the followers of Lord Śiva, and by putting Lord Śiva into a state of confusion He was able to destroy Bāṇāsura's army. Kārtikeya was so strongly beaten by Pradyumna that he fled the battlefield, while the remnants of Bāṇāsura's army, harried by the blows of Lord Balarāma's club, scattered in all directions.
Enraged to see his army's destruction, Bāṇāsura rushed Kṛṣṇa to attack Him. But the Lord immediately killed Bāṇa's chariot driver and broke his chariot and bow, and then He sounded His Pāńcajanya conchshell. Next Bāṇāsura's mother, trying to save her son, appeared naked in front of Lord Kṛṣṇa, who averted His face to avoid looking at her. Seeing his chance, Bāṇa fled into his city.
After Lord Kṛṣṇa had thoroughly defeated the ghosts and hobgoblins fighting under Lord Śiva, the Śiva-jvara weapon — a personification of fever with three heads and three legs — approached Lord Kṛṣṇa to fight Him. Seeing the Śiva-jvara, Kṛṣṇa released His Viṣṇu-jvara. The Śiva-jvara was overwhelmed by the Viṣṇu-jvara; having nowhere else to turn for shelter, the Śiva-jvara began to address Lord Kṛṣṇa, glorifying Him and asking for mercy. Lord Kṛṣṇa was pleased with the Śiva-jvara, and after the Lord had promised him freedom from fear, the Śiva-jvara bowed down to Him and departed.
Next Bāṇāsura returned and attacked Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa again, wielding all kinds of weapons in his thousand hands. But Lord Kṛṣṇa took His Sudarśana disc and began cutting off all the demon's arms Lord Śiva approached Kṛṣṇa to pray for Bāṇāsura's life, and when the Lord agreed to spare him, He spoke as follows to Śiva: "Bāṇāsura does not deserve to die, since he was born in the family of Prahlāda Mahārāja. I have severed all but four of Bāṇa's arms just to destroy his false pride, and I have annihilated his army because they were a burden to the earth. Henceforward he will be free from old age and death, and remaining fearless in all circumstances, he will be one of your principal attendants."
Assured he had nothing to fear, Bāṇāsura then offered his obeisances to Lord Kṛṣṇa and had Ūṣā and Aniruddha seated on their wedding chariot and brought before the Lord. Kṛṣṇa then set off for Dvārakā with Aniruddha and His bride leading the procession. When the newlyweds arrived at the Lord's capital, they were honored by the citizens, the Lord's relatives and the brāhmaṇas.
I'm surprised to hear the above story that Lord Krishna and Lord Shiva had a fight and Karthikeya was defeated.
Sudhaamaji, Is that the original version and interpretation?
Why should Lord SHiva fight against Lord Krishna for an asura(even though his devotee).He did not fight for Ravana who was also his greatest devotee.Infact ,Lord Rama built the temple in Rameshwaram and installed the lingam there.
I read because he killed a Shiva devotee , rama installed the lingam to propiate Shiva.
Jarasandha was also a devotee of Lord Shiva and Krishna left Mathura and founded Dwaraka because of jarasandha's continuous nuisance.Seems Krishna will challenge Jarasandha to a fight.Jarasandha will be very very enraged and he'll come to the battlefield full of anger.But,Krishna will run away from the battlefield(tactical retreat).
Krishna kept on doing this till Jarasandha became weak because of his anger.Moral of this is not to get angry at anyone or anything as anger will ultimately lead to your destruction.