1 doubt on Ramayana
Before Rama, we have heard that Vali defeated Ravana.
I read somewhere that there was another person who also defeated Ravana? Who is this? Anyone knows this story?
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1 doubt on Ramayana
Before Rama, we have heard that Vali defeated Ravana.
I read somewhere that there was another person who also defeated Ravana? Who is this? Anyone knows this story?
Dear Viggop,
It was Kartha-viryarjuna. Here is my old article on the incident.
http://chennaionline.com/festivalsnr...eligion560.asp
And the attempted 'bala-pariksha' with Vali is narrated in:
http://chennaionline.com/festivalsnr...eligion561.asp
Good to be back in the old ForumHub with a new look.
anbudan,
Hari Krishnan
Dear HariKrishnan Sir
Very happy to know that you are here. :-)
I have mentioned your site
www.harimozhi.com in both ramayana and mahabharatham threads.
When I read the character analysis of Ramayanam characters in English, I had tears in my eyes.They were simply excellent.
Dear Viggop:Quote:
Originally Posted by viggop
It is the same Yayati. One has to look at the epics as a chain of events. The story of Mahabharata starts with Yayati. I counted the number of generations from Yayati to Pandavas/Kauravas some years back. This genealogy is given in Srimad Bhagavata Mahapurana. (Book Nine.) The Pandavas/Kauravas are about 48 generations away from Yayati. My count is rough and approximate. Assuming an average of 30 years per generation, one has to realise that they are separated by more than 1500 years. :-) This is a very modest assumption, considering the longevity they enjoyed. (It may be interesting to note that Dharmaputra must have been at least about 70 years old when the war started!)
Vamana!Quote:
Originally Posted by viggop
The story goes that Ravana in trying to win all the worlds also goes to Pathala, where king Mahabali is ruling. When Vamana became Trivikrama and vanquished the king, he also gave him a boon. He blessed Mahabali to be a Chiranjeevi, and made him ruler of the netherworlds, and also promised him that he himself (Vamana) would be the gatekeeper of Mahabali's kingdom (as a placatory offering for the injustice in sending him to the Netherworlds).
So when Ravana goes to meet Bali in war, he is defeated by the little dwarf who guards Bali's gate!!
Thanks Badri.Never heard of this story though.
Vamana is of course an Vishnu avatar, so Vishnu himself defeated Ravana just like Shiva's toe crushed Ravana's arrogance when he lifted the Kailash.
Harikrishnan Sir also mentions a battle of Ravana with Yama where Brahma saved Ravana.I have not heard this story too.
I have never heard of the stroy Badri narrates. Neither the Valmiki Ramayana, nor the Kamba Ramayana nor the Uttara Kanda of Ottakkuthar has a story to this effect. Anyway, let's hope Badri would be able to inform us of the source of the story.
Viggops, the battle between Ravana and Yama is narrated in the Uttara Kanda of Ramayana.
Harikirshnan Sir
Please tell us more abt this battle with Yama and Ravana.I have never heard of this story.
Here it is Viggops:
"Escapes death for the first time"
http://chennaionline.com/festivalsnr...eligion557.asp
There are 107 instalments on Ravana written in ChennaiOnline, from the origins of his race, his birth, how he came to be known as Ravana, and a detailed character study, commencing from
"Greatness without goodness"
http://chennaionline.com/festivalsnr...eligion545.asp
You may commence from this and keep clicking on the link 'Next' given under each article to navigate to the next article. These are yet to be uploaded to harimozhi.com.
Dear HariKrishnan Sir
I just read that report from chennaionline and was about to update it here.You have already given the link.Thanks for the trouble you took in digging this out for me.
Can you please continue this thread of Ramayana.Tell us more about things like Dharma,how to destroy ego,etc.
Thyagaraja,one of the carnatic music trinities,and also a great devotee of Lord Rama.In his songs, he has mentioned few incidents of Ramayana.See it here.
http://carnatica.net/special/tsp-ramayana-i.htm
carnatica.net is owned by carnatic artists Sowmya and Shashikiran.
HariKrishnan Sir
After you read the thygaraja ramayana, can you recollect any stories of these incidents which Thaygaraja mentions.
"The Singili Muni episodes mentioned in ‘kalalanerchina’ (Dipakam) is yet to be unraveled. So is the incident described in ‘Vachamagocharame’ (Kaikavasi) in which Rama shoots a second arrow to smash a first one originally aimed for cutting the tail of chamari deer. "
a.r.
This seems to be a completely new version of Ramayana.Vedavathi taking place of Seetha!
That is nothing new. It is a story narrated in the Uttara Kanda. Vibishna in Kamban mentions that this Sita is the reincarnation of Vedavati. This may be found in the MandhiralOchanai padalm at the commencementof Yuddha Kandam. (I am a bit busy now and will quote the verse some time later.)
In the meantime you may read the story of Vedavati here:
Ravana charmed:
http://www.chennaionline.com/festiva...eligion554.asp
The curse of Vedavati:
http://chennaionline.com/festivalsnr...eligion555.asp
I would soon exhaust all the links in ChennaiOnline. :))
Dear Harikrishnan Sir
I did read the Vedavathi story by you in chennaionline.But,what is new to me is that Agni sends Vedavathi to Ravana and keeps Sita safely till Rama vanquishes Ravana.This one I dont think has been mentioned by you.You had mentioned that Vedavathi incarnated as Sita.
Hope you have read Thyagaraja ramayana in carnatica.net
The story of 'Real Sita' disappearing in Panchavati and Ravana carrying off a 'Maya Sita' has several versions. Right Hon'ble Srinivasa Sastriyar cites two of them and questions the validity of these 'theories' which are not supported by Valmiki. These are not supported by Kamban, either. I have dealt with two of these versions and another theory that Ravana was a devotee of Mahalakshmi and hence he carried her to Lanka, in my current series on Sita. You may read them here:
Was he a devotee?
http://chennaionline.com/festivalsnr...eligion745.asp and
Clever but not convincing
http://chennaionline.com/festivalsnr...eligion746.asp
I am now getting a bit worried if I am using the Forum as a dumping ground for the URLs to my articles. :?
As for the Thyagaraja Ramayana, it is an interesting study. Wonder if someone has gone into the intricacies of Arunachala Kavirayar's Rama Nataka Kirthanai.
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One small query unrelated to the thread. I don't know why I am shown as a 'newbie hubber', when I have been participating in the Forum Hub from 1999. And, at the end of the page I am told that I cannot post new topics. Is this a policy adopted in the case of 'newbie hubbers' or everyone? :shock:
Dear HariKrishnan Sir
This 'newbie hubber' is given based on the number of posts in the new forum.If you cross 500 posts, you are 'senior hubber'.This is the new forum and it is heavily moderated and different from old forum.
New topics can be posted only with permission of Moderator hubbers - NOV,sbadri99,Thiru .This is to prevent new topics being opened which abuses caste and religion.
Regarding Arunachala Kavirayar's Rama Nataka Kirthanai, why cant you be the person to through its intricacies and educate other hubbers like us? ;-)
Hari Krishnan: Indian History and Culture section was abused a lot and was closed down for a while to edit out obnoxious posts and also delete threads dealing with caste and other controversial topics where emotions were running high. Also, posting new threads is controlled for the same reasons. You can always propose a new topic to the moderators of this section or the administrator RR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Krishnan
Dear Mr. "Hari Krishnan"
// One small query unrelated to the thread. I don't know why I am shown as a 'newbie hubber', when I have been participating in the Forum Hub from 1999.//
Very Very Very Very Very.... GLAD to see you back here... to your Old-Home....
So far this Thread-Boat was sailing haphazardly towards different directions ... even aimlessly sometimes ...
And now since You the EXPERT ON THE SUBJECT ... have joined, I am sure ...
... this Dais will become RICHER and MORE INTERESTING as well as BETTER PURPOSEFUL too
In my Opinion ... ... you well deserve to be identified as .... PRO- HUBBER .... irrespective of your age in this Forum
.. You. being a Well-knowledged Expert-Writer in the Multi-faceted areas and dimensions.
In fact ...You are NOT A NEWBIE..... but an OLDBIE... rather a SENIORBIE...
... To be precise......You are a "PROBIE"
How do we take this Ramayana thread-boat from now on?
We have to set some goals/aim on what we plan to discuss in Ramayana thread so that it benefits lot of people.
Dear HariKrishnan Sir
I read your chennaionline post where Mandodari cries over the dead body of Ravana.
She asks some very good questions as you have described.
"Have the 5 senses which you had controlled initially in your life when you did tapas hit back at you? You defeated the senses and gained boons from Shiva,Brahma but they have hit back at you by killing you.You were killed by your (lack of control of) senses and not Rama!"
Beautiful words.We have to keep the 5 senses under control always.Otherwise,they'll kill us.
How was Ravana finally killed by Rama.Reading HariKrishnan's sir in chennaionline,it is mentioned that Rama used brahmaastra to kill ravana.
I have heard a story where Ravana's power is present in his navel and Vibishana told Rama about it.Hence,Rama kills him by aiming at his navel.is this story true?
No. There are countless folklore, stories of pravachan-kartas, and so many others that have their relevance in their own place. You see, there is a saying in Tamil, ¡Õõ ¸¢¨¼ì¸¡Å¢ð¼¡ø ¦¾É¡Ä¢Ã¡Áý ¾¨ÄÄ ²òÐ There doubtlessly are so many enjoyable parables, involving the Ramayana characters. So far so good. But the negative part of it is, people tend to believe that it is there in Valmiki Ramayana, or Kamba Ramayana or any other Ramayana that is widely respected.Quote:
Originally Posted by viggop
That Ravana could only be killed by Brahma-astra was informed to Rama by Mathali, the charioteer of Indra, who comes with the chariot of Indra for the last day's battle. It is Mathali who urges Rama to use Brahma-astra, which Rama was hesitating to use from the beginning. (Not so with Lakshmana. We see him using the divine missile twice in the epic. The first during the battle with Atikaya, the second son of Ravana and the second during the battle with Indrajit.
The story of Ravana's power being present in his navel is not there either in Valmiki or Kamba Ramayana. To my knowledge in other Ramayanas too.
BTW, folks, I was going through the previous pages. I see a lot of heat generated about Agni Pravesa. This is the point that is being discussed by me a bit elaborately in my ChennaiOnline Religion column, for the past three months. I have just completed the narrative portion and started examining the validity of several arguments against Sita.
In case any of you are interested, you may read the column. And raise your questions, doubts et al, so that I can handle them too.
Harikrishnan Sir
I do not understand why Rama hesitated to use brahmaastra? You have mentioned in chennaionline that ravana used even the trident of Shiva against Rama(which Rama stopped by saying an angry "hoon"). When Ravana(who is demon race and not human race) can use divine weapon, why should not Rama respond in the similar way.Rama is only responding,right?
Also, did Ravana ever use the brahmaastra? Did he know how to use it? I know Indrajit did use it.In the final battle with Ravana, did Rama exhaust all the weapons of ravana and finally left him without weapons and then used the brahmaastra against Ravana? please answer when you have time.
Before answering your questions, I have to make one thing clear. An arrow is different from an astra. These two are not similar. An arrow is normally made of a ligther material. Mostly the arrows used by soldiers and those belonging to the 'files' were made of lighter wood for body and metal tipped. Lighter metals were used for making arrows for kings and the others come under the 'ranks', that is Commanders-in-chief Second-in-Command, wing leaders etc. It has to be remembered that arrows had to be shot from bows and had to be light in order not to lose their fillip in flight. Hundreds of varieties of arrows are described in the epics. From the ardha-chandra tipped arrow to 'palladam' a very thin variety of arrows which were used for shooting in a bunch of anything from five to hundred are described. Instead of laughing them off, one has to sit and study the details. I am collecting the details. It may even be that a separate book may be published on this subject. Who knows. God willing. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by viggop
Use of metal arrows was a privilege of Kings and other high rankers. (Of course their arsenel included the wooden bodied arrows too.) This was essential due to the fact that making arrows with lighter metals involved technology and was a comparatively expensive affair. That is why the name of kings and others were inscribed on every arrow. The scouts moving about in the battlefiled would collect arrows and other weapons from the bodies of the dead and would pass the usable weapons back to soldiers and others. The specail arrows would be identified by names inscribed on each weapon and would go back to the appropriate person. (However, Rama's arrows are known to come back to the quiver by themselves. There is nothing to discuss more on this point of how it could have come back. We need a better understanding on the subject.)
On the other hand the divine weapons are not just arrows. The way to launch them differs very greatly from shooting an arrow. One has to intiate them with mantras. Now, I have my own views about the 'mantras' etc. The person who launches it recites the ways in which the missile is to be launched, encoded in the mantras. Remembers the steps in which the missile is to be fired, by reciting the mantras and goes about firing it. It is to be noted that every time a missile is fired, invariably the poet mentions 'thazal saarthi', that is, 'lighting it with fire - or firing it.' And our commentators write a hotch potch 'urai' saying ¸üâà ¬Ãò¾¢ ±Îò¾ À¢ÈÌ ¦ºÖò¾¢É¡ý. The arrows are not fired. They are shot with the bow. The poets speak of various weapons that issue forth from this one divine weapon, be it Varunastra, Vayuvastra, Narayanastra, Brahmastra or Brahma Siras, the supreme of all weapons. This is something similar to projectiles and other destructive instruments that spill and are thrown about all around when a bombshell bursts.
The question of divine weapons - or missiles - is to be still gone into and studied. The Mahabaratha gives more detailed account of weapons than the Ramayana. I am collecting information on this. But, what one comes to understand is astras were weapons of mass destruction. Rama was against the use of such weapons of mass destruction. He had always maintained that the use of Brahmastra and other divine weapons should be deferred in all cases. In fact, it was because Rama told Lakshmana that he must use only ordinary weapons in the battle with Indrajit, Lakshmana was precluded from the use of Brahmastra. See these verses from Kamban.
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þáÁý À¢ÃÁ¡ò¾¢Ãò¨¾ô ÀÂýÀÎòÐŨ¾ô ÀüÈ¢ þÄìÌÅÛìÌî ¦º¡ýÉ - a policy decision - ¦º¡ü¸¨Çô ÀüȢ ÁüÚõ þÄìÌÅý À¢ÃÁ¡ò¾¢Ãõ ±ö¡Áø ¾ý¨Éì (þáÁý ¦º¡ýÉ ¸¡Ã½ò¾¡ø)¸ðÎôÀÎò¾¢ì¦¸¡ñ¼ ¸ðΨøÙìÌ þó¾ ÍðÊ:
To use or not to use: http://chennaionline.com/festivalsnr...eligion509.asp
He is at it again
http://www.chennaionline.com/festiva...eligion510.asp
Killing from hiding:
http://www.chennaionline.com/festiva...eligion511.asp
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Thanks Harikrishnan Sir
I was all along thinking that arrow is the english equivalent of asthra and both are launched from the bow!!! This is the impression I got from seeing the Ramanan Sagar's ramayana in TV. The way you have described asthra seems it is like a missile(liquid propelled/solid propelled).Indian army conducts separate training for commanders who have to lauch missiles!!!
So, Rama does not use divine weapons just because he does not want to kill other people.When he used brahmaastra on Ravana,i think he must have curbed its power so that only Ravana is killed and not everyone in the battle field.
In the mahabharatha, when ashwathama launches the brahmaastra against Arjuna,i think he uses the blade of grass and changes it into brahmasastra. Is this true?
The launching of astra still required the use of the bow. By the word bow, we tend to understand a shape something like an elongated D. There were many different types of bows. The warriors bow was not similar to the hunter's bow. One has to remember that the hunter has to run with his bow in hand, behind his kill. The archer on foot could not carry as heavy a bow as the archer on a chariot. The shapes, the accessories, the attachments, every single detail differs. This is an on-going study. I am yet to come to any conclusions on this, especially in the absence of solid material evidence in museums. Even the weapons that lie in the museums lie unclassified.Quote:
Originally Posted by viggop
Therefore, the launching was still with the use of the bow.
When I used the word 'missile' and when I said 'launching it' and 'firing it' I did not have the ICBMs and their likes in mind. I meant that which can be fired and launched, that which can be propelled from one place to another, that which can explode, and that which can destroy a large area. When the poet says 'mUvulagum aziyum' one has to remember that the word 'ulagu' need not always mean 'world'. It could simply be a 'larger area'.
The difference between an arrow and astra («õÒõ «ò¾¢ÃÓõ) is very clearly brought out in the epics. The poets do not use the word astra when they mean an ordinary arrow and vice versa. But how was an astra made, what was it composed of, how was it propelled, etc. are questions which still remain mysterious. Because not a single 'astra' was made by anyone on earth. Every single one of them - the epics mention very clearly - were received from celestials. This is where Eric Van Daniken's theories sound valid and plausible, though they are scoffed and mocked at by a large number of researchers.
Yes. I have explained that in the article to which I have given URL. It is not Rama alone. There are so many instances in the Mahabharata, where the word 'caution' is always spoken of, when an 'astra' is handed over. Conditions are laid down as to when they are to be used. The person who receives it gets training on launching, regulating its course, including/excluding persons from its effect (this is limited only the a few astras) and withdrawing it too.Quote:
So, Rama does not use divine weapons just because he does not want to kill other people.When he used brahmaastra on Ravana,i think he must have curbed its power so that only Ravana is killed and not everyone in the battle field.
Once again, while regulating the course was possible in almost all the cases, withdrawing was possible in a few cases - like the extremely potent Brahma-astra and Brahma Siras. A few of the astras could be used just only once. Like the bombs, they burst and destroy. 'It would then return to me,' would say the bestower of the missile. Like the Naga-astra that Karna used.
I think you are speaking about the last scuffle between Aswathama and Arjuna, after the War. Yes. He charges a blade of grass with the power of (not Brahma-astra but) Brahma Siras. He did not know how to withdraw it, while Arjuna could. This was so because Aswathama had not been taught on the art of launching and withdrawing that particular astra, while Arjuna was.Quote:
In the mahabharatha, when ashwathama launches the brahmaastra against Arjuna,i think he uses the blade of grass and changes it into brahmasastra. Is this true?
The care that the Masters took, the trust that a student should gain, before the intricacies of the use of an astra could be learnt can be seen by this incident. Acharya Drona had taught the art completely (in respect of Brahma Siras) to Arjuna, while he just started, but not completed the training of his own son.
This is a very vast subject. I am still in the very preliminary stage of collecting data and evoloving ideas. And therefore I am not in a poisition to present a more rounded picture. God willing.[/quote]
Dear Harikrishnan Sir
Thanks a lot! I hope you succeed in your research on the weapons described in the epics with the grace of God.
Dear Harikrishnan Sir
Why is Mandodari given such importantance? She is supposed to be a paragon of virtue to be emulated.
But,in Ramayana ,i think she is just a very minor character who does not seem to have done anything to her credit.
She tries to advice Ravana to give back Sita.I dont think Ravana gets angry at her like he got angry with Vibishana.
Also, i read that she was exceptionally beautiful that Hanuman initially mistook her for Sita.But,saliva was flowing from her mouth in sleep and hence he identified her as a member of rakshasha race.is this true?
Also, what does the name "Mandodari" mean?
MS has rendered a sloka from Valmiki Ramayanam
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/l/1/m/artist.14/
The sloka is "Tato Yagne".Can someone give the meaning of this slokam by Valmiki maharishi?
A Virutham by Kambar rendered by MS.Enjoy!
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/l/1/m/composer.91/
I think you are speaking about the last scuffle betweenDear Mr. Hari Krishnan,Quote:
Aswathama and Arjuna, after the War. Yes. He charges a blade of grass with the power of (not Brahma-astra but) Brahma Siras. He did not know how to withdraw it, while Arjuna could. This was so because Aswathama had not been taught on the art of launching and withdrawing that particular astra, while Arjuna was.
The care that the Masters took, the trust that a student should gain, before the intricacies of the use of an astra could be learnt can be seen by this incident. Acharya Drona had taught the art completely (in respect of Brahma Siras) to Arjuna, while he just started, but not completed the training of his own son
Excellent interpretation and presentation . Great to see this.
I have one query….
I heard that Ashwathama also learnt on the art of launching and withdrawing Brahma Siras but intentionally did not withdrew it but REDIRECTED ITS COURSE TOWARDS THE WOMB OF ABIMANYU’S WIFE UTTARA so that the entire Pandava race will not have any successor.
However the grace of SriKrishna decimated the asthra and protected the womb and the baby is Parikshit.
Can you pls clarify
Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Balaji
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Dear Mr. Hari Krishnan,
I could not read your previous posting .
There seems to be a technical problem on this thread
As Mr. Hari Krishnan precisely mentioned, I also recollect one episode in Ramayanam when Brahmarishi Vishwamithra takes Rama and Lakshmana to forest to help him perform all the yagnas.Quote:
The care that the Masters took, the trust that a student should gain, before the intricacies of the use of an astra could be learnt can be seen by this incident. Acharya Drona had taught the art completely (in respect of Brahma Siras) to Arjuna, while he just started, but not completed the training of his own son
One day, Vishwamithra will teach all the divine weapons ( Divya Asthirangal ) to Rama . Sri Rama will also chant the mantras and apply them . One by one, the respective Gods will appear before Ram and will assure him. Rama experimented to find out whether everything is perfect.
Yes , only in the final stage when Indira's charioteer Mathali reminds him that have you forgotten to use Brahmastra ? Sri Ram will respectifully chant the mantra and apply on Ravana.
There was another incident when Parasurama comes in the way of a newly wedded Rama while coming back from Mithilapuri.
Parasurama , on hearing that Ram had broken Siva dhanusu.. will be furious which is like adding fuel to fire as his avatar was destined to marginalise the overgrowth of Kshatriyas.
While Parasurama will be very particular to fight with Sri Ram, Sri Ram will respectfully enquire him whether there is any real need for a fight.
But finally when Parasuram sees the real Sri Ram eye to eye, he will realise who Ram actually is and will admire him and move out of the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by viggop
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Quote:
Also, i read that she was exceptionally beautiful that Hanuman initially mistook her for Sita.
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Quote:
But,saliva was flowing from her mouth in sleep and hence he identified her as a member of rakshasha race.is this true?
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Quote:
Also, what does the name "Mandodari" mean?
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