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Lovely set of songs Suresh! The moment I came across "Suddha Saveri" in your paragraph, I knew you would list out Koda Manjin! Manasoram is a given anyway, because it is recent. The telugu song is the surprise for me, for I havent listened to it before although I had the album.
Btw, probably you can add even: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer...4'&lang=en to the list. Lovely song! There is a telugu version too of this song, if I remember right, it is sung by 2 female singers.
Kamal,
Thanks. I had listed 'Sithagaththi Pookale' in m writeup. It is a well known melody so I didn't list it. Yes, it does belong to the 90s.
csr sir, vel, Suresh ji, RR, KV, skr, thumburu, vinatha, aakarsh,
I am indebted to you all. :notworthy: What an enlightening thread and wonderful analysis. Even I don't get much whatever little I get, I am feeling so great. Thanks to you all.
Katyayani - A Janyam of Natabhairavi
Structure - S R2 G2 P D1 S | S D1 P G2 R2 S
Prima facie it looks like Mohanam , ofcourse the difference being in the later it is Ga3 whereas in Katyayani its Ga2
There was a recent concert of SPB in Chennai .The theme was raga based film songs.
Needless to say majority of the songs were from Maestro's compositions
In the concert he mentioned about this raga and sang the song Amma Amma Endhan from Uzhaipalli.
An Amma song , can it not be good , SPB sings so awe inspiringly , such a touching song , you get a slightly sombre feeling when listening to this raga.
Lovely flute trills in the prelude and there is a hard hitting impactful counterpoint between violins and then a small veena conveying the melancholic surrounding :sad: to again give way to the resounding violins. The flute also beautifully wraps itself around the melody in the Charanam.
He uses Tremolos in the 2nd interlude to keep the reverbrating effect intact :clap: to be followed by the violins and the oh so louly flute with some arpegios in the background :bow:
The finale witnesses a super crescendo style ending with violins converging across 3 octaves (flute trills suddenly appear) to end in a thunderous fashion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-7QJzYlZ_k
From a sombre song , came across another IR song in the same raga.
One which came much earlier and which is a really nice melody sung so sweetly by SPB. I guess this should have appeared in App's Golden Era of IR-SPB thread, Pls give link if possible.
Its just amazing how IR treats the same raga in such diverse ways.
Jodi Nadigal - Anbe Odi Vaa
http://thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp...200%27&lang=en
Posting the list of songs that were sung in the SPB Ragam based film songs concert held in Kamarajar Arangam , Chennai last month.
Count the no. of IR Songs :)
1. Thumbi vaa (Instrumental music)
2. Isaiyil Thodangudhammaa (Ananthu)
3.Kaatril varum geethamae en kannanai ( Female chorus and ananthu) - Kalyani
4.Jaadhi malli poocharamae - SPB - Maand(MD - Maragathamani)
5.Amma amma endhan aaruyire - SPB (It was mind blowing!! ) - Katyayani
6. Naanoru Sindhu - Sindhu Bhairavi - Sindhu Bhairavi
7.Idhazhil Kadhai - Lalitha (SPB and a female singer) - Unnaal Mudiyum Thambi
8.Vaikarayil vaigai karaiyil - Subha pantuvarali (SPB) - Payanangal Mudivathillai
9.Malligaye Malligaye - Sarasangi
10.Unnal mudiyum thambi thambi - Hindolam - SPB
11.Meendum Meendum Vaa- Dharmavathi - SPB and a female singer (He said it is a difficult song for the chorus singers to sing)
12.Maanjolai kilidhaano - Kizhakkae poagum Rayil - Ananthu
13.The evergreen , beautiful Nandha nee en nila nila - Madhuvanthi - Dhakshinamoorthy Swamigal - SPB !!! Bliss
14.Radha Radha nee engae - Durga - Meendum Kokila - SPB kalakkals
15.ABC nee vaasi - Niranjani - Kaaki chattai - Ananthu
16. The mellifluous Vannam konda vennilavae - Peelu - SPB , the great!
17.Innum ennai enna seiyya poagiraai - Gambeera nattai- SPB and a female singer!
18.Madhura Marikkozhundhu - Mayamalavagowlai
19. A medley of Paartha vizhi - Paavani and Maogum enum Theeyil - Kanakaangi- Brilliantly rendered by Ananthu after explaining about both the raagams!
20.Raagam Thaanam Pallavi - Raagamaalika- SPB - Movie Shankarabaranam
21.Kootatthilae Koyil Puraa- SPB- Karnataka Khamas
22.Kaadhal Mayakkam - Suddha Saveri - Pudhumaipenn
23.Aval oru Maenagai - Sivaranjani - SPB -*Goosebumps*-
24.Poovil vandu -Mohanam - SPB - Kadhal Oviyam
25.Poove Sempoove - Solla Thudikkidhu Manasu
26.Unakkenna Melae nindraai - SPB
27.Kannukkul Nooru Nilavaa - Shanmukhapriya - SPB
28.Kamalam Paadha Kamalam - Ananthu
29.Oru naal Podhumaa - Ananthu (Brilliant singing)
Here it is :Quote:
Originally Posted by skr
jOdi nadhikaL post on SPB-IR thread
skr,
your # 15 (ABC nee vAsi) is from oru kaidhiyin diary (and not kAkki chattai) :-)
skr, tks for the update on the concert. Minor correction: it's D1 (komal dha) for Katyayini. 'jodi nadhigal' (one of my alltime favorites) is a beautiful composition.
App ,
Thanks for the link and also pointing out the correction.
RR,
Thanks for mentioning , ive now corrected it to Da1.
hi skr
that was a gr8 update -- i was eager to know if they had done some rare numbers. amma amma from uzhaipaali in Kathyayini is cool. There is also another song Poothendral Kaatre Vaa from the film Manjal Veyil. (Even some of the lines in vizhiyile mani vizhiyil mounan mozhi is in this scale.)
hindustani khamaj ? malgunji?
<br></br>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ6MO0Uymd4
<br></br>
nailing down the the above song may be the key to deciphering vaana mazhai pole -
<br></br>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghLN00oaK0w
Idhu enna raagam-pa?Quote:
ABC nee vaasi - Niranjani
RR ,
There is a raga Niranjani which is a janyam of the 31st Melakartha Yagapriya.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Janya_Ragas
However im not sure ABC Nee Vaasi follows that structure , will check with a friend and get back.
skr: thanks, but the song doesn't seem to follow that scale.
vel,
Both guesses don't seem to be right. I can at best call it misra khammaj. Maybe some hindustani experts can clarify.
rajiv, RR -- niranjani might be the female singer's name :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by RR
Quote:
Originally Posted by RR
Quote:
Originally Posted by RR
hi RR --After plenty of bloodshed in anlayzing these songs in the ORKUT community, a tired Vignesh and Tn Arunagari reluctantly declared this it could be hindustani Gara.
I quote Vicky's dissection below
QUOTE
So let me summarize what has been discussed on "Veenai Meetum" so far and then build my case further on it.
Observations so far:
1. Arun found some resemblance to Veenai meetum with few Hindi classics which he has posted.
2. Arun has suggested Malgunji / Rageshree
3. Raj has seconded this opinion
4. Both Arun/ Raj have ruled out the Raag Gora Kalyaan.
In the past few days, I have listened to all youtube links by Arun. I have gone through Mr. Parikar's pages end to end.
Here are my thoughts:
1. I also think Gora Kalyan can be ruled out.
Why?
Because from Mr. Rajan Parikar's link, it appears that Gorah Kalyan is averse to Gandharam in any form let alone the G2 which is daunting Arun. Opening statement on GK in that link is >>Gorakh Kalyan, too, is affiliated with the Khamaj thAT, and again, like Narayani, the gandhar is out of a job here>> ; However Veenai Meetum seems to have Ga all over place to the point of being Ga2 centric. End of story..
2. I think we should rule out Rageshree too.
Why?
Because Mr. Parikar again says:
" The pancham is varjya throughout, the rishab is skipped (and at times, alpa) in the Arohi mode."
The line "Enai unakkena eesan vaithaan" in charnam ends in Panchamam. And then the next line "Ilai Maraivinil Paasam Vaiththaan" = Pa dha Ga pa dha ni
We could negate this "Pa" occurance as an as accidental if that was the only aberration that stops this song from being sanctified as Rageshree :-)
I don't think so.. Especially when you factor in the No Ri in the Arohi rule as well as score of other accidentals in this song.
Just for the sake of completion, there is some reference about usage of Pa in Rageshree that says: >>A variant, Pancham Rageshree (i.e., a P-laden Rageshree), is occasionally heard in some Agra quarters>> ; Now saying that "veenai meetum" could be Pancham rageshree would be over stretching our argument .. So we would want to rule out Rageshree..
That begs the question is it Malgunji or not..
I am almost exhausted trying to look answer for this question.
Arguments For Malgunji:
=================
- Both Ga allowed in Malgunji
- Both Ni allowed in Malgunji. Especially this is very poignantly brought about in end of charanam of Veenai Meetum.
- Ga2 in descent which gave Arun - the bageshri sundae
- "sa ni2 dha2 ni2" phrases
Arguments Against Malgunji
====================
As illustrated by Shri. Ramashreya Jha's demo of Malgunji "sa ni2 dha2 ni2 sa ri2 ga3 ma1 pa" seems to be its most characteristic pakad. This tells us two things.
- Ga3 in Arohi is the KEY differentiating factor of Malgunji from Bageshri.
- As a corollary, Ga2 is allowed only in descent.
Veenai meetum seems to very loosely adher to the "Ga3 only in Arohi" rule. while it flouts the "no ga2 in Arohi" rule rather liberally. Eg: The gamakam of "vaa" (of 'Maalai sooda vaa') = ri2 ga2 ma1| ri2 ga2 ma1
For me the chief Malgunji dis-qualifier is the application of Ga3 in this song. Don't forget that fundamentally Malgunji is based on Khamaj that (with Ga3) and not Kaafi Thaat (Ga2). Ga3 is almost non-existent in Veenai Meetum. Found only in two places: During the lines "Ulagame Pugazhndhadhe" in pallavi and towards the end of charanam.
From Mr. Jha's demo as well as on the other links, Ga3 should be felt much more prominently in a Malgunji song. But in Veenai meetum these roles are reversed. In this song ga2 beats ga3 hands down.. to the extent of forcing me to say ga3 is an 'accidental' in this song. This is very atypical of malgunji.
Same thing can be said about Panchamam. In Veenai Meetum, Pa has as much insignificant presence as ga3. in fact it lead us in the direction of Rageshree. But Malgunji has way too much an high voltage Pa.
Closing Arguments
- I find a telling resemblance to the classic "Kabhi Khud Pe" that Arun posted and Veenai meetum. Google is telling me that, "Kabhi Khud Pe" is based on a hitherto undiscussed Raaga called "Gara".. Not surprisingly Mr. Jha towards the end of his Demo point out that, Malgunji is very similar to Gara.
- Both interludes of Veenai Meetum are liberally composed keeping the flow/ situation of the song and doesn't bother too much about the otherwise felt Malgunji/ Gara in this song. Especially the second interlude which is more of A major Sankarabharanam.
- Such phrases highlight the "Light Music" nature of this song. When you have such prominent free-spirited interludes, to me the vigor/ inspiration to fit such songs to a Raaga, dies out then and there.
- For the sensation seekers, we can still categorize that -
Very specific parts of "Veenai meetum" - when you leave out few lines in its Pallavi and Charanam and ignore its interludes - qualify as a customized new mutated variety of Malgunji that actually sounds like Gara !!
:-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
(All these specs leaves us with just 8 lines or so of the whole song, BTW !!!!!!!!)
- For the truth seekers, lets just say its a great light music song that sounds heavenly.
I fully second Arun's earlier comment on the forum that,
- Tagging a Raaga to a tune is not a simple exercise.
So when every song needs to be tagged to a Raaga, It calls for due diligence which costs unbelievable amount of time and drive..
And for rather light music oriented songs (with classical base), when names come up, you are sure that most of the time you are working hard to prove its NOT a given Raaga. (Because at the end of the day, A raaga is a raaga with very little scope for subjectivity) Hence this is not efficient.
Right Arun.. I missed your note on Raag Gara and hence misspecified it as an "hitherto unknown name to our discussion".. Of course you already specified it on the Youtube post on "Na Jiya"..
So I am fully with you that, if at all we want to put a name, indeed we are left with only your two original contenders (Maalgunji and Gara);
UNQUOTE
Wow! that was the most exhaustive analysis I have ever seen. :notworthy: Thanks a lot vel for sharing this one. It seems a big collective effort to get to the core of the song. Wow!
Maestro might have finished this song in just minutes and I can't believe how much time and effort it takes to dissect it! Big applause to all of you (them).
'veenai meetum' can be a reluctant Gara.
what about 'vaana mazhai'.. There's no rishabam, rt? Then have to rule out Gara too.
btw, which orkut group is this?
Veenai Mettum is a song I chanced upon on dhool.com many years ago. Fantastic Madan Mohan-ish melody that hardly has any traces of Ilaiyaraaja, actually.
I really doubt if it is Malgunji. According to this page: http://www.indiapicks.com/SNT_Hindi/P-244.htm Malgunji is Rageshree aarohana and bhageshree avarohana.
By the way, this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76ZZRPwQYOI is similar to Veenai Meettum Kaigale :-)
RR, V_S, Aakarsh -- the analysis was done at orkut ilaiyaraaja fans group --- the thread name is Raja's carnatic vista -- http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommMsgs...11093543825925
Hi ,
I checked with a friend who attended the concert.
She confirms that it was mentioned as Niranjani only.
I am little confused here.
Niranjani is a janyam of Yagapriya and has the structure S R3 M1 D1 N1 S | S N1 D1 M1 R3 S.
It doesnt seem to have any reference to the song ABC Nee Vaasi.
I read in Orkut Groups that it could be Niroshtaa having the structure S R2 G3 D2 N3 S in the Aarohanam.
However i feel it should be Ānandharoopa based on the structure S R2 G3 P D2 N3 S |S N3 D2 P G3 R2 S because the song has quite a lot of S R2 G3 P D2 N3 S N3 D2 phrases.
Both Niroshtaa and Anandharoopa happen to be janyams of Shankarabaranam.
skr, I confirm the presense of Pa. So it's not in Niroshta.
Guys, I had asked a colleague of mine about 1) veenai meetum kaigalae and 2) vaana mazhai pole.....
she checked her uncle, with a pro in hindustani and a disciple of Bhimsen Joshi (just came to know about this connection of her's), .
It seems her uncle listened to the songs, felt they were classics and gave the raga details as 1) rageshri, 2) gorakh kalyan ----taking shuddha nishad in madhya saptak like Bahar uttarang
I think Narayanan was right about Gorak kalyan !!
Guys, I had asked a colleague of mine about 1) veenai meetum kaigalae and 2) vaana mazhai pole.....
she checked her uncle, who is a pro in hindustani and also a disciple of Bhimsen Joshi (just came to know about this connection of her's), .
It seems her uncle listened to the songs, felt they were classics and gave the raga details as 1) rageshri, 2) gorakh kalyan ----taking shuddha nishad in madhya saptak like Bahar uttarang
I think Narayanan was right about Gorak kalyan !!
The next ragam I want to take up is Desh. A ragam with supposedly 'limited' scope but Raja has given some excellent melodies. I will leave out the 80s melodies and talk about the 90s and later as usual.
This song was a recent discovery. As recent as today!! Swarnalatha in my opinion was the rightful heir of Janaki. She was able to sing any type of song and generally ate for lunch singers like Mano and Arunmozhi. And with SPB et al she stood her ground firmly. Pity that she first lost her voice and later we lost her. This song is a 'matter song' going the lyrics. The leisurely beats complement the raaga very well. 'oru pokkiri raathiri' from 'Idhu Namma Bhoomi'. Mano and Swarnalatha:
http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer...6'&lang=en
Ragas may have their own grammar and limitations but they don't apply when Raja tunes them :) The one Desh I cannot miss in the 90s is the folkish one that he gave. When 'Kaakai Siraginile' was released lot of my SPB-Raja friends were thrilled. "SPB and Raja are terrific. This film music will break records. etc etc" Nothing like that ofcourse happened. This particular song did get a decent airing I would say but never rose to the top of the charts. SPB's singing, Raja's tuning and the funny lyrics mixed with English make this song unique:
http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer...1'&lang=en
The two songs would have given a pleasant feeling and you can be excused if you think that Desh can be used only for such soothing melodies. As I said rules don't apply to Raja. Here is a 'kuthu' type song from 'Chinnavar' (about which album I have written earlier.). Mano and Chitra sing this wonderful duet. Raja gives it the required energy without taking away the soul of Desh. One more song to showcase Raja's grip on multiple aspects of music making:
http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer...1'&lang=en
A more classical Desh, which is heart touching, comes quite naturally from his tribute to his spiritual guru. 'ennai kavrndhizhutha ramanan'. Outstanding composition.
http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer...5'&lang=en
And finally, 'reminding us of olden days' melody:
http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer...4'&lang=en
Suresh, I don't know carnatic, but I have read in the Forums that Oru Pokkiri is in Madhyamavathi(?) and Gopiyargal song is in Saranga. What do you think?
Also, you left out Vizhiyil Pudhu from Theertha Karayinile, which is my fav. Desh raga song.
Venky,
Thanks for asking. I think I made the mistake about 'Oru Pokiri' For some reason it sounded like Desh to me but I guess it is closer to Brindavana Saranga. A friend told me in twitter. So we must remove it from the list.
I left out the 'Theertha Karayinile' song because it was from the 80s.
And now I am confused, if the Desh flavor I am hearing in 'Chinnavar' is Desh or is it also 'Brindavana Saranga'?
And very 'Gopiyarga;' is very much Desh.
Total Desh flavour!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureshs65
I love the Oranjaro song - which is probably the first Raaja-desh I have heard. The 2nd one I heard is ennai kavrndhizhutha ramanan, which i loved a lot. It is indeed a great composition. Long time since i revisited that.
Good list there!
Defiitely not Desh, Suresh. This sounds like a ragamalika - one portion is Brindavana S.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureshs65
After vizhiyil puthu, oranjaaram should be his best filmy Desh. 90's or 80's I think his Desh melodies have been top class without too much experimentation.
RR,
I am also having the same feeling.
Was discussing with a musician friend of mine and said that in film music I tend to get confused with Kapi and Desh and sometimes Brindavana Saranga.(Doesn't happen in Carnatic music) He said that all three share the same arohanam and all three have both the nishadams. So if the music director is playing with these common notes, you can hear whichever ragam you want :)
Suresh,
I think Desh and B.Saranga are close in terms of notes but they have so special prayogas that it's not hard to spot one from the other - if the MD is doing justice and not trying to confuse ;) . But kapi is a different animal IMO. It can take more notes than just S R2 M1 P N3, so should be less confusing. As you said, it's clear cut in carnatic but needs closer attention in films.
RR,
The problem is the higher registers. All three would be sharing the same notes in the Ni sa ri ni range. Since both nishadhams appear here, if the MD is doing the arohanam and is hovering around the Ni sa ri ni phrase, I think there will be scope for confusion :)
This is from aathma -- i used to think this is as sudhasaveri or durga, but got from a radio program that this is gowda malhar. A great song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhfDQkRrnXs
Sarasamukhi sakala bhagya -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YTy8dAQfyk
Suresh, you may not have heard this one before - VAazhkai Odam Sella from Aval Appadithaan. In a cult movie that didn't get popular acclaim, this song is buried well beneath the phenomenal UravugaL Thodargadhai and Kamal-powered panneer pushpabgaLE. Strong hindustani flavour - a type of song that he stopped the production line in 80s itself. KEttuttu sollunga. Atleast this one I knew before but there is a total, unknown song from the same movie which I discovered only recently - "adi aatha aatha" - rumbunctious is the word that comes to mind. Total riot - kuththu pAttula ivLO sangadhi vekka mudiyumA?