The Greatest Indian Epic - Mahabharath

What I have heard about chakra vyooham.It is supposed to be known as Padma Vyooham in which Abhimanyu died,,i think

Suicide warriors belonging to kauravas side challenge arjuna and they take him away by taunting him.Because his ego was punctured by these guys,arjuna goes after them inspite of Krishna's advice.Meanwhile, as there is no one to enter Padma Vyooham,Bhima requests Abhimanyu to enter as abhimanyu claims knowledge of entry.Bhima assures abhimanyu that he & other pandavas will also help him in his return.Abhimanyu enters the vyooham with Duryodhana being the central warrior in the vyooham.Jayadratha had got a boon from Lord Shiva that he can defeat all pandavas except arjuna for a day.He uses this boon and wards off Yudishtra,Bhima,Nakula and sahadeva from following abhimanyu into the vyooham and they are unable to help him.

I think it was one of duryodhana;s son who finally kills abhimanyu with the blow in the back.By that time, he is very tired as all his weapons are broken.Karna breaks abhimanyu's bow by shooting from behind as per Dronacharya's advide.All these actions are adharmic.

I think Karna's bow is called "Vijaya". Arjuna does kill Karna's sons.I think one of the sons also took to drive karna's chariots in the war

Yes, Karna's Bow is called Vijaya.

I have no doubts it is the greatest literary work. But I cannot withstand the morals in it.

I do not even agree that Pandavas were legitimate claimers of the throne. It was Bhishma who should be the ruler. When he himself supported Duryodhana why were the Pandavas wanting the throne ? On what rights ? The entire administration was supporting Dhuryodhana.

Next thing is I do not believe word by word of this epic. Karna was the son of a Charoteer. But he was hailed and praised by Dhuryodhana. I see in Dhuryodhana the heart and mind to accept a lesser previleged man. For me he looks more virtuous than Pandavas.

Pandavas won the war by crooked means. They did not have experience to rule. They had no expert advicers like Bhishma/Dhuryodhana. Then how did they rule ?

Based on what I read, this war was the greatest genocide in Indian history. And all because of Pandavas. No where in Mahabharatha there is evidence that Dhuryodhana and Co were not good rulers. Their people were after-all happy. The Pandavas were simply the "rebels" or the "destroyers". All for "greed" of power. They could have been the insurgents in real life.

Just because they had Krishna on their side, they won the war. In anycase, why did Krishan support Arjuna ? Just because Arjuna is related ? Or because he asked him for help first ? Should he not, instead, think who the people of the country fovoured ? Kauravas with the intellectuals on their side obviously were better administrators.

Also I feel this classic keeps reminding us of "birth based caste system" again and again. Even good charectors like Krishna and Karuna are finally merged into the Kshatriya caste as if Vyasa watched their conception and birth. It is this thing that irritates me.

The next thing I hated was the charector of Draupadi. She was simply irritating for me since child-hood. How can Pandavas share her. And how can she even live sleeping with so 5 men ? Or is she a Tibetan ?

Also Draupadi is the one who humiliates Dhuryodhana and so she is the one directly responsible for the war which costed so many lives.

Bhishma and all Kauravas have great respect in me including Gandhari.

May be I am a descendant of Kauravas. In that case I wish to rather take revenge on the Pandavas.

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Originally Posted by pizzalot

Next thing is I do not believe word by word of this epic. Karna was the son of a Charoteer. But he was hailed and praised by Dhuryodhana. I see in Dhuryodhana the heart and mind to accept a lesser previleged man. For me he looks more virtuous than Pandavas.

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NO!!! Duryodhana was NEVER Virtuous at all, it was KARNA who is VIRTUOUS, Duryodhana was cunning, he wanted some warrior who can challenge Arjuna in Archery and some one who can defeat Arjuna, he found this Karna , hence he made him a King, but Karna was NEVER aware of Duryodhana's Cunningness!

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Originally Posted by Raghu

NO!!! Duryodhana was NEVER Virtuous at all, it was KARNA who is VIRTUOUS, Duryodhana was cunning, he wanted some warrior who can challenge Arjuna in Archery and some one who can defeat Arjuna, he found this Karna , hence he made him a King, but Karna was NEVER aware of Duryodhana's Cunningness!

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I would rather put it this way. Karna was rejected by Pandavas because of he was poor and lower in Status. He was disqualified after he won the contest. It was Dhuryodhana's brave and broad mindedness that appealed him. See, he need not have made him a King. He could have had him as a slave and yet made him work for him against Arjuna. If he was really after his talent he could have very well gone to woe Krishna himself, with whose support he was sure to win. But since the beginning he did not try much. It was at the behest of Shakuni he finally went to ask for HIS help. Dhuryodhana was humiliated by the Pandavas especially by the ugly Bhima. He was also humiliated by Draupadi. He just wanted them to be destroyed. He was not a smart politician in any way like Pandavas. He was a outspoken person who spoke out his heart. But the Pandavas were the real cunning people. There are a lot of incidence this is proven.

My theory is since because they won the war they had become heroes. If Dur was so cunning and wicked, he would have gone to hell. But see he goes to heaven. Inspite of winning the war the Pandavas were stopped at the heaven-gates and cursed to hell. It was just one of them ( I forgot to say it earlier, Yudhirshtra is my only favorite among the Pandavas ) who was granted the privelege of the heavens. In the heavens Dhur and Karna and other Kauravas were already there to greet him.

It is as though God gave the Pandava terrorists what they wanted on the earth but gave the Kauravas the eternal peace.

It is the off-springs of the Arjuna(grandsons) who finally ruled the earth. I am pretty sure they went to hell after they die.

In short anyone who supported or supports Pandavas went or will go to hell. On the other hand Kaurava supporters like me are good, plain and non-cunning people so we will must be going to heaven.

You must remember here that Dhuryodhana even let the sons of the incapable Pandav to rule for a while. He took their Kingdom (Indraprastha) rightfully back after they lost it to Dhur. What face did they have to ask for it afte 14 years ? If I lose something in gamble it is gone forever isnt it ? It was so unfair for others to intervene and say Dhur had to to retuen it back after 14 years. See, even here those cowards made politics. This simple guy Dhur did not know how to do politics.

Pandav, the incapable, had all his sons very wicked and cunning. "younger" they were more wicked they become. Dharma was OK. But Bhima onwards their wickedness and cunningness grows. Nag and Saha should be nothing but pile of wickedness and cunningness. Karna was not really the son of Pandav.

Mahabharatha is a great epic. No doubt about it. But one should read the hidden values in it. The Pandavas won the war and so whoever wrote it could not explicitly say the ruling Pandavas were correct. But the truth is hidden in many places. It is not a good idea to let someone ( who could be descendants of Pandavas ) to read it and explain it for you because they will have an hidden agenda.

Krishna is an exemption here. Though he supported Arjuna/Pandavas, he was in-fact punishing him for his/their greed. He wanted to be the "best" warrior and asked his Friend and Relative Krishna to teach him and only him the Chakravyuga a war strategy. Karna taught him and only him and see how knowingly he made Arjuna suffer by letting Abi die ? Thus even though Krishna helped Pandavas on earth he was actually helping Kauravas and Bhishma to go to heaven.

Dhur means wicked. How come all of the Kaurava names start with Dhur or Wicked ? Will any parent name their kids as "Wicked" ? This itself is a proof that the epic was writers were sponsored by the victorious Pandavs. They made themselves as heroes and their opponents as wicked. They must have simply asked them to name all the Kauravas as meaning "wicked". In reality they all must have had different names and titles. May be the people hailed them as even good.

But the writer is a genious. He has embedded the truth in several places so that even after ages if one reads with an intelligent mind, he can discover the truth.

In anycase the writer makes it easy for us to know who was right and who was wrong. Only the good goes to heaven. And here the Kauravas were the good ones.

Jai Dhuryodhana !

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Originally Posted by pizzalot

I would rather put it this way. Karna was rejected by Pandavas because of he was poor and lower in Status. He was disqualified after he won the contest. It was Dhuryodhana's brave and broad mindedness that appealed him. See, he need not have made him a King. He could have had him as a slave and yet made him work for him against Arjuna.

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NO, That is against Kshatriyas Dharma, Only a King can fight another King

Raghu, several rules were broken during the war See Bhima killed Dhur hitting him on the thighs against the rules.

A woman killed Bhishma against the rules.

Karna could have easily killed Arjuna even not being a king.

Also there are lot of evidences Dhur and Karna were friends. Karna was even playing chess with Dhur wife. Dhur never felt jealous about Karna. He is always described as an impulsive person. He could not have been a strategic and cunning person at all.

Hi

Hold on,

I will give a detailed, explanation :-)

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Originally Posted by pizzalot

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Originally Posted by Raghu

NO!!! Duryodhana was NEVER Virtuous at all, it was KARNA who is VIRTUOUS, Duryodhana was cunning, he wanted some warrior who can challenge Arjuna in Archery and some one who can defeat Arjuna, he found this Karna , hence he made him a King, but Karna was NEVER aware of Duryodhana's Cunningness!

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Jai Dhuryodhana !

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Pizza, dont make a fuss here. This is one of the serious threads going on in this forum.....Talk with some sense and dont throw whatever you feel like....