IR's composing technique

tvsankar, I havent even read that article yet as I dont have access to AV. So please spare us your senseless comments :-)

Kiru, Please go ahead with your postings, i really liked your analysis of 'thendral kaatre....'Tabala Raaja! Lets continue...

vijayr, Come on Sir, so what all of IR's techs have been discussed in detail millions of times here!! Some of us were not around that time, IR fans love to talk about his songs zillion times, same stuff,old stuff, new stuff... every time we find something new & excited. Enjoy music!!

vijay,the discussion is getting fuzzy. Lets answer straight questions, shall we?
1. There is a strong suggestion that MSV did atleast 1000 movies across forums. If I remember right, he himself said 1700 in the link in old responses
2. If so, where are the 500 exceptional albums for 30% non-junk rate?
3. List out the 100 exceptional albums yo u think. It is not a question of convincing me but yourself. You dont know how many albums MSV did. You are guesstimating. When asked to provide a list of MSV movies , you said you have to refer to links or old DF-ers will provide, if they were. Now you say you can reel off 100 off your head. Why dont you reel off?

Okayy, dont respond to any of these above.Let me get specific as I see that you tend to fudge issues if I don get specific

Can you come up with a reliable list for 1963 and mathematically calculate the junk rate for me? I didnt want to get this specific but you are forcing me by fudging issues.
BTW, why is it difficlt for you to accept that of all the movies released in 1963, even Saravanan would struggle to come up with how many movies MSV did. If so, how are you so sure that major % of what MSV did that year is non-junk?

digression:

rajdes, I dont see anything "fuzzy" about my reply. Like I said, I can come up with a list easily but I see it mostly as a futile exercise. I posted a link for MSV's discography from pazhaya paadal pakkam earlier. I am not sure if you saw it.
http://tfmpage.com/ppp/vr.html

(the links at the top)

If you have tamil fonts you can view movies and list them and we can analyze.

Another list here that actually compiles all movies released year by year
http://www.intamm.com/movies/movieli...2%80%93%201996

Shouldnt be difficult to isolate MSV movies in 1963.

I have also posted links to discussions earlier where the general consensus was that MSV did 350-400 movies and most of which are listed in the discography.

Pl continue in Hit rate of TFM MDs thread.

Folks, once upon a time on tfmpage there were really good people from whom I could learn something. I did
did credit rjay earlier for this in this thread. Most of film music knowledge was gleaned from such
individuals here. I have interacted quite a bit with rjay (who got me learning mixing with n-track) privately and havetalked to Srikanth over the
phone few times. Srinath was the one who got me noticing the basslines. I am thankful to these folks.
What I am writing here is all this knowledge I gained formatted to suit this discussion there. I am also generalizing the techniques so as to be manageable for a discussion. So let me get
to another post relevant to this topic.

Almost all MDs use a few idioms (or negatively put - a formula)to build songs. These idioms could be their own or somebody else's or something common. A good MD will create more idioms and use large number of ones. The ostinato idiom is something that is widely prevalent in the 20th century

An ostinato is sequence of notes repeated/looped. IR has used his technique to build light classical/popular melodies.
Listen to the two examples below

1. mazhai varudhu kudai kondu
2. poongkaaviyam pesum oviyam.

The pallavis are orchestrated through ostinato's. IR strictly follows the pallavi/charanam format.A charanam is usually the body of the song. It is like pasta as main course after eating various fancy appetizers. A real indian melody is better backed by a indian taala vaadyam and IR switches to tabla for the charanams (we'll talk later how this was an opportunity for ARR, now lets just note the composing technique alone)

IR always used tabla for classical/semi-classical based songs (there are exceptions to this generalization as well). As mentioned earlier, it suits indian melodies better (tabla is a compromise in film music for mridhangam/ghatam classical arrangement).
In these kind of songs, chords are kept to minumum and only light harmony notes are used. Serious WCM orchestration is used only in the interludes, sometimes without an obvious WCM flavor.Bass lines are used mainly only to highlight the rhythm/taalam. (Vice versa, when other orchestration techniques are being used, the beat pattern is left simple/looped and the chords/bass lines are laid over this rhythm pattern).

Listen to the example

1. sindhiya venmani sippiyil muththachu

In this songs, there are only 3 nadais use. One for the pallavi, which has another tabla overlaidfor just novelty. A slowed down version for the first part of the charanam, the same nadai as in the pallavi (when melliya noolidai) and another one when it starts as alliyum killiyum. THe strings backing for a subpart in the first part of the charanam is also a standard feature

vijayr, why shouldn't I defend IR when u can sing bhajanai to MSV etal at the cost of IR?
"Now that he has retired from TFM he can sing, dance or play cricket or do whatever he wants:-) The point is, when he was the numero uno and TFM MD he didnt do all that. " - when did he announce that he is retiring from film music? Unlike MSV who acts full length in serials and movies , IR just appeared in one or 2 scenes and so what? when MSV can cash in on his popularity and act, why not IR? Iam talking about what is MSV doing musically these days and not about his resting on past laurels
app_engine does not collectively represent IR fans. I can discern between MSV, VK,GKV. SG could never really ape IR as his interludes and heavy bass were give aways. Where as he has composed like MSV in many songs like "unnai ethanai murai paarthaalum" , "kalyana ramanukkum", " aval oru pachai kuzhandhai" and sometimes the outcome was much better than what MSV did . VK also gave some superb melodies which was far better than what MSV gave like "unnidam mayangugiren" , "gangai nadhiyoram", "oraayiram karpanai", "vaazhvil sowbaaghyam" etc .
Why do we have to care about what he says in interviews? We all know he is full of contradiction. His work speaks for him.
The professional ethics of NOT ONLY IR , but few other older MDs should be questioned too for they too have their share of junks.
Singling out IR alone is mischievous and ulterior .

sorry, I forgot the digression tag

posting something relevant now - I felt his tabla usage was innovative in his few songs for erotic situation Take "raja rani jackie", "en deham amudham"( Oru Odai Nadhiyagiradhu) , "Paadhi kaLin mayakkam" (Shankarlal). The tabla had overloaded meaning than what it is usually used for. I also recollect Gangai Amaran's
"vandhanam en vandhanam" from Vaazhve maayam

thumburu, I have given up on this discussion. But to answer you one last time, MSV did'nt appear in films and serials in the 60s when he was the numero uno MD and when he could have gained something by appearing in films(like how IR did in the 80s). I dont care what he does now. He isnt active in TFM any more and you know that. He probably has time to explore his other talents. If you pretend not to understand my point or arguing just for the sake of it then live in your own delusional world.

Vijayr
Digression!!!
Pl participate in the tabla discussion on IR songs in the right spirit!!!Now you discuss on THIS subject.This is the good way of discussion.
The outcome of the discussions should identify the GEMS of IR for the valuable readers!!! Not a junk one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
With Love.
Usha Sankar.

tvsankar, OK here are a couple for you

pudhiya poovidhu from Thendrale ennai thodu had a nice "tabla tarang" complementing the main melody lines. Its an instrument where there are different pieces of tabla drums that can be tuned to different notes of the scale and can be used as a melody instrument even though its percussion. IR had used it as a sort of counter to the pallavi. You can hear it distinctly during the pallavi

Kaalai nera kaatre from bhagavathipuram railway gate had a different rhythm pattern that I hadnt heard in any other song. Usually in IR's songs the first table beat that you hear coincides with the start of the melody line. But here the tabla waits till about 2 time measures(or aksharas as they call in carnatic) before it starts off and merges seamlessly with the main melody line.

Recently, Ganashyaama from Kochu kochu santhoshangal has a rhythm pattern that changes every line - a rare characteristic for an IR song. Although the thala is misra chaapu(7-beat cycle) throughout, IR changes the nadai every other line.

In the second version of "kurangu kayyil maalai" from Mumbai express you hear a small prelude with just percussion and little else. Its difficult to decipher/notate where the beats fall in the first two or three listens, it seems they are all over the place and dont fall in the usual places where you expect them to(although the overall timing of each cycle works out to be the same), but its been purposely done that way probably to represent the chaotic situation the song conveys.

The last 2 examples in above post does not necessarily refer to tabla but more towards percussion usage in general.

I am listening to another song which has eluded me a for a long time. sandhanamittu sadhirradum from Ruchi kanda poonai uploaded by a kind DFer
http://web.music.coolgoose.com/music/song.php?id=186491

A melodious tune with an interesting rhythm pattern

Vango, Vango, Vango VijayR!!! See, you have so much to offer positively. Very kind of you,share your knowledge with us!!! Great Day! Vinu

Vijayr
I saw ur post!!! You told good nos.Thanks for the nice write up !!!! Indha azhanga skillai ellam vittutu epadi kupai mails panna manasu vandhadhu adhuvum niraiya page ku!!!
Kiru
Thank u for ur postings!!!!
Indha post ellam padtihu nichayam enjoy panraen.

Guys, keeping aside IR's composing technique, as a layman who loves IR's creations, I am deeply disturbed by the lack of spontaneity in IR's music nowadays - just listen to a "Madai thiranthu" from Nizhalgal, and then listen to "yenna paattu" from ONOK - you will know what I am saying

I was listening to "KALKANDAM Chundil" a Malayalam song by IR - omigosh!! sweet, invigorating,groovy bass lines and a vintage IR breezy meldoy with complex flowing interludes - that is the IR I want to hear - sob, sob, sob!!

"meldoy ' should read as "melody"

MASSIMO SIMONINI (Composer & Founder of ANGELICA forum, Italy) - The music of ilaiyaraaja, besides containing many forms, is a good object of reflections and meditations on the form, on its consume, for an eventual, possible expansion. It shows models & rare formulae, unthinkable for the western music song world or western cinema. His film songs feature a metrics that is strictly linked to the images, to the atmospheres of the movie, while the movie itself appears to be composed by a myriad of narrative video clips, which in turn give the song an opening towards other musical forms - A moving open form, that is strictly linked to the inspiration of the moment, ready to welcome anything in a surprising structure, enriched by a, still so strong, indian tradition, where rhythm, melody, devotion and surprise travel together. These entities are seen moving in places where style and form can be continually re-discussed, while still following a logic, a narration. It¹s almost like a kaleidoscopic song, full of rules, but also rich in expressive possibilities...keeps moving...truly vedic .

Recently I have been listening IR albums a lot (I mean almost 9 hours at work, 2 hours during commute and 1 hour at bed!) and the more I listen, I completely agree with IR that music is just a "sitthu velai". Since I have been listening a lot, I could easily figure out which song resembles which other song. This came to my mind recently and want your opinion.

Neramidhu Neramidhu Nenjiloru and Snegithanae Snegithanae Ragasiya Snegithanae - is the latter one inspired from the formar?

njv, not even close :-)

njv:

I agree. the first lines are very close. "Neramidhu Neramidhu" and "Sngeidhane Snegidhane" starts are very similar.

njv,kr,

similarity illeengO...minjippOnA, oru word -mhoom, oru syllable- that will be there between any songs of same meter...

Please focus on Raja's techniques...kindly refrain from bringing other musicians here...:-)

Raaja's tech in film music nu oru phd yae seiyalam.Avar niraiya options la seidhu irupar.Hero vai base panni avaroda composing style irukum.
For Rajani, Kamal,Karthick,Mohan,Ramarajan - Ivaragalai manadhil vaithu songs and bgm oru form il irukum.
Anal nichayam repetition irukadhu.Nichayam nadikum hero vin style or story il repetition irukum.Ana IR songs and bgm il repetition irukadhu.Anal andha hero vukana touch irukum.
Adhil Mohan have had a very good opportunity!!!! All mohan films are hit in nos.Songs are marvellous in all his movies.
IR composing nalayae Ramarajanum mohanaum nadipadhu pol thonrum.
Storyai base panni isai amaitha IR GREAT aaga irupar!!!!
Angae pudhu IR ai pakkalam!!!!
this is my opinion about IR composing.Ana subjecta pesa therijavanga pl sollunga.Kekkarom!!!
Kiru contiune ur class!!! i try to learn something!!! Kekkara songai indha madhiri info voda kekkum podhu new dimension kedaikaradhu!!!! I like it.

Tvsankar - I can immediately point out that Kamal's movies had a distinct arrangement/instrumentation, heavily leaning towards percussion innovation, heavy (very heavy) bass lines, especially the mid 80s Kamal movies

with come back with more observations later

was listening to idayam oru kovil (IR version) title song. Till now I have heard only the SPB version but today heard the IR version and was totally taken back!What a difference.

Amazing violin orchestation including veena and flute interludes.
Note the fast violin interludes just before the start of the 1st charanam
Then when IR sings looks like his voice is complemented with some instrument (basso?).All along the charanam,great tabla accompaniments.
Before the start of the 2nd charanam,female humming, followed with tabla and shehnai..
Again IR's voice is complemeneted with this instrument similar to 1st charanam.This is where IR's voice peaks...
Then follows shehanai..and fast violin interludes (which seems to be portraying a climax scene)...
Note the 3rd charanam,this time IR's voice is accompanied with violin interludes...again IR's voice peaks...
Towards the end of the song..amazing violin interludes reach a high pitch and the composition ends there (on a high note)...

Here's the IR version in coolgoose:
http://www.coolgoose.com/music/song.php?id=170816

tvshankar:all said and done,thalaivar
herokku etha matri
story line ku etha matri
situation ku etha matri

paatu amaippar and timeperiod ku etha matri orchestration arrange pannirukkirar.....

the early 80's had emphasis on guitar and violins (with a western touch),then came violins with tabla and flute..then came violins with synth combo etc..

for example
Different Heroes similar subject movies:kizhakku vasal,chinna thambi,chinna gounder,ejamaan
Outcome: there was some rustic/folk touch to all the songs but each song was noticably different...

Two hero movie:agni natchatiram
Outcome: totally classly music in the 80s(oru new generation ku music amicha matri irundadu)

Same hero, different movies:vikram,kakichattai,punnagai mannan
Outcome: Situation and story line resulted in a varied set..but still all had bayangra techno BGMs)

(my 2 kaasu)...

In the latest interview to Kumudam, IR reiterates what we have discussed a few pages back on this thread...He confirms that for a film, the director is in-charge and if he is knowledgeable, a good song results...From his statement about sahAna, atANA and the illustration of dOsai / idiyAppam, it's quite clear that `exacting team lead' influences the composer to a great extent...

In the same interview,when he told about TIS, he mentioned about two things.
1.Dedicatin.2.Kaala pramaanam.
Angae start aradhu IR in composing tech.He applied these two things from his first movie annakali and still now he is doing!!
Expression of the feelings!!!!!!!!!!
He is the king still now!!!!!!!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/tamil/highlight...songs.shtml#38

This celebrates that there's no technique that IR hasn't explored...(avar payanpaduththAdha uththi illai)

appadi irukkumpOthu entha `composing technique'ai cholvathu, edhai viduvadhu...

"appadi irukkumpOthu entha `composing technique'ai cholvathu, edhai viduvadhu..."

Ippadi solli full stop vechuttingaLe :) Rendu mAsama onnumE kaNOm inga.

While many of IR's songs have great interludes homogenously leading to charaNam, some have that `extra punch' thing at the instant when interlude ends and singer starts the charaNam.

I used to always admire the ending of 2nd interlude in the song `idhu oru pon mAlaippozhudhu'. The flute asecends beautifully and instantly joined / replaced by a solo violin leading to the charaNam. However, Raja gives a big punch with a string combo for less than a second as the climax for the interlude, before SPB starts `vAnam enakkoru bOdhi maram'...I would've admired this ending 1000 times (right from the day I heard it in `valve' radio 2 decades back, to the PC headphone today)...

Yesterday I was listening to a CD given by a friend in my car. This contained some female (solo / duet) songs by IR. And here I heard another magical ending while waiting on a signal. The song being played was `kaNNukkuLLE yArO' by PS/SPS. (I think the film is `kai kodukkum kai'). I hadn't listened to this song much when it was released and didn't have an opportunity to do a deep dive (like I did during nizhalgaL era). It was during this time period that Raja's output was pouring like torrential rainfall and we had trouble in choosing what to listen and what to leave.

Anyways, the first interlude of this song has this magical moment (culmination of the interlude leading to the singer). Is it a single Cello or a group of violins or what! chara rara...Such a magical dive, probably jumping from a higher octave to next! So smooth and brilliant!

I ended up rewinding this portion 10+ times, before I reached my destination!

(BTW, I found PS struggling to sing this song. NOM to PS fans, poRumaiyA, nalla CD systeththila kEttupArunga, evvaLavu strain paNNarAngannu theriyum.)

Hi app_engine,
which is this collection? Is it a original CD released or a custom made compilation by ur friend, I happened to watch "Kai Kodukkum Kai" 3 or 4 days ago on SUN Tv afternoon movies, there are some great BG scores even for trivial fight scenes, I happened to record the movie unfortunately after that female duet " kannukkule Yaaro", I am looking for a original CD.
There is a title song by IR also, I never knew that it existed, it was a decent movie, yet because this movie was done after Rajini becoming SS bombed heavily, rajini, Revathi both have acted very well.
The "Nizhalgal" stuff was cool, I think we might have missed so many of such naunces in many other songs for either getting carried away from the breginning of the song itself or not paying close attention
prabhudas

Prabhudas, I don't know whether it's compilation or copy of some original...but does not have anything printed...just a handwritten `ILAYARAJA MELODIES'...

Dear all...

When we are discussing about good songs in this thread, just for a change, I want to introduce a worst song.

The great producers :A.V.M Productions
The great Director : S.P.Muthuraman
The great lyric writer : Vairamuthu (or) Vaali (sure one of them)
The great Music Director :ILAIYARAJA
The great Singer : S.P.Balasubramaniyam
The great Actor : Kamal Haasan

When all those 'greats' are combined in a song, can you expect it will a worst one....????....!!!!.
But it is there.

Movie : UYARNDHA ULLAM
--------------------------------

The multi millioner Kamal gives a party in a Star Hotel, and sing a song there with more respectable (?!?!) manner, to the guests:

"Enna venum thinnungada...doi....
Ulla mattum allungada....doi...."

Wow...what a song from that 'greats'.......!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Why any one of the greats did not object that 'VERY GOOD SONG'...

I cant digest till now..., Can any of you....??...

saradha, apart from 2 songs all others in Uyarndha uLLam belong to the category of the above song. I have always wondered as to what goes thru the mind of creators when they create songs like this. With some input from MDs themselves it will be interesting to find out someday.

vandhAl mahAlakshmiyE, kAlaiththendRal, engE en jeevanE - indha mooNil endha reNdu ungaL choice vijay?

First 2. Enge en jeevane is decent but I have grown tired of monotonous tabla-based dull SPB/KJY-IR mid-tempo songs of the mid-to-late 80s. This song is a typical example.Kaalai thendral is close too, but the tune/PS's voice saves it for me. VandhaaL mahalakshmiye-in spite of SPB's over-antics for Kamal the tune, rendition everything scores. A freaky light classical song.

Vijayr,

I thought Saradha sn was mentioning about the worst song (I interpret it as "could have been more respectable by picturaization, tune, rendition, lyrics etc." ) overall by greats (not just by IRs tune or beats).

From your statement

1. engeen jevane is a decent but you are tired
2. Kalai thenral close to decent
3. Vandhal mahalakshmiyae - tune rendition everything scores

Looks like none of them are in the worst category (like enna venum thinnungada doi...) . All of the above songs have decent picturization, tune and lyrics.

call me a country brute or whatever , but I loved Enna vaenum thinnungada doi!!!
Particularly the way SPB sings "Chicken biriyaaaneee" then follows it up with "Kedacadhai allu " (or something like that) and then the trumpets join in for a grand finale!!!
I pity those who can't enjoy this and other dabbanguthu songs like "Namma singari sarakku"(from kaakki chattai), "Jaathi illai betham illai"(kaadhal parisu). Real fun with SPB and IR putting fast dandanakka with Jazz and blues all set to sindhu bhairavi or kalyani or some proper carnatic raaga(arthaath:(i.e.,) There is a wonderful method in the perceived madness)!!