Can you pl elaborate on this one?Quote:
Originally Posted by kid-glove
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Can you pl elaborate on this one?Quote:
Originally Posted by kid-glove
Exactly. And I think this is true to an even greater extent for Bharathi Raja's vEdham pudhidhu. There's a sense of going the extra mile in these films as if to say, "oh these good people, if only they'd let go off that one last bit of 'bad habit' that is caste discrimination!" In comparison, I think the critiques of brahminism in some of Kamal's films, and to a lesser extent even Balachander's (who has always displayed a sort of twisted schizophrenic mindset when it comes to embracing liberal values), are sharper. It's perhaps understandable considering that the latter two are brahmins themselves and hence didn't have the burden of "being nice." (On Balachander though, one thing I didn't realise until late was that two of his famous films in this respect, vaRumaiyin niRam sivappu and unnAL mudiyum thambi, involved the Pillai caste and not brahmins!)Quote:
Originally Posted by P_R
In Rudraveena it is a brahmin family though. In UMT they changed it to a piLLai family. Wonder why.
Which of course is because of the insider-outsider difference you mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by equanimus
Vedam Pudhidhu has a funny example of 'socialism of censure' - which perhaps is the 'ideal' being suggested here: The panchayath scene where the aSAri is ribbed by the thEvar, who in course of his comeback pokes the Iyer, who drags in the dalits who take a dig at the converted Christian and babel ensues.
Oh okay. Incidentally, I was wondering about the Telugu version a while back -- that it could have been a brahmin family in Telugu. Not that I've any familiarity with how an orthodox saivap piLLai household would look, but I (earlier) thought UMT's setting was clearly modeled to evoke a brahmin milieu. I don't mean to imply he was indeed being protective of brahmins, by the way, but it's a rather strange move to make (in not just one but two films).
Ha ha ha! I don't recall the scene at all. I've a poor memory of the film in general, but remember that the film's 'message' was a fizzle.Quote:
Originally Posted by P_R
Vedam Pudhidhu ruffled some feathers. UMT was after that. So perhaps he wanted to avoid possible problems. Just speculating.Quote:
Originally Posted by equanimus
Hmm, possible. One crucial point in 'vEdham pudhidhu' and 'idhu namma ALu' is that both films have a brahmin girl fall in love with a guy outside the caste. Of course, 'idhu namma ALu' goes two steps further. The guy is from a low caste and they also marry.
Feeyaar, the man who made arangetram feared for umt?
Nevertheless, the rules on who can and cannot criticise something is funny.
So Kamal cannot criticise Brahminism because he rejected it? AvLO criticism irukkavE dhAne rejeet paNNApla? Kalyan says he should still conform and be a brahmin and raise criticism. I find this ridiculous. So, you want to set a pigeon hole for rebels, too? Ahn criticise pandravangallAm, indha undiyalla podungappa :lol:
You rebel because you have issues. Those are the issues he is highlighting. Take specific instances where you found the dig unreal or strawmanny. Instead, all that you can say is he kindals brahmins ad nauseum.
Or if I extend, suddenly it shifts to cross kaappathushunu sonnaar, perumal silai kappathudhunnu sollaliye. Those shouldn't even be relevant to discussion on his criticism of brahminism. Take one theme, illustrate with examples without dragging several unrelated threads just because together they add up to a convenient anti hindu narrative. Then we can have a meaningfl discussion
May be now we can look forward to the springing up of - Rajinikanth's / Vijay's / Surya's / KB's / MR's / BR's / etc's ideology in their respective films - threads in the hub in future:-)
Add to them some polls and the celebration is complete:-)
One thing we can definitely be certain is the impossibility of bringing up one for Sivaji "films" (while it may be possible to bring one up for his personal convictions) :-)
IMO, other than some sugar coated propaganda in MGR films (and some dEvar bakthi / animal films), there hadn't been much preaching in TF. Next to Sivaji's, the KH films are possibly the least preachy (i.e. if we leave out those without mass appeal e.g. Satyaraj / latchiya nadikar and the likes).
Actually KH donned several roles that mouthed "gounderish" statements in a polished way (the nakkal for praying before eating in Satya, for example) :-)
Looking for ideologies in his movies is obviously insulting the "true-to-the-art-kalaignan" IMHO. Ofcourse, some common threads could be seen often (me-the-kAdhal-iLavarasan, romance >1 girl per movie, insist on kiss scene etc).
Other than that, he is clearly in the polished gounder mode (i.e. holy cow slaughter).
Concern for personal safety (as highlighted by irir123 in the post that started all this discussion) is definitely there.
Being an artist and not a politician, he should not be unnecessarily picked on for that (for that matter, every politician is scared for personal safety in the country. More money is possibly invested in such "z" security stuff for politicians than BSF of the country).
If some groups whom he allegedly ridicules cannot take on him with sufficient vigor -legally / illegally etc - so as to restrain him, is it not their problem and not his? (disunity etc)
Absolutely! And the hurdles "non-Brahmins" have to cross to deem themselves worthy of membership! The latest example is Yaaradi Nee Mohini. However, nobody from this right wing Hindu group will even be cognizant of all this, let alone have a discourse of it in a forum. When it comes to somebody giving a semblance of a perspective to the minorities, they will be up in arms. Bias and prejudice in its crudest and funniest form. LaughableQuote:
Originally Posted by equanimus
P.S: And the biggest irony is that there is a reverse caste equation to all this. Suffice to say that people like Baradiraaja are in a safe haven, and what's more, they will get accolades.... (Plum made this point already)
When was the last time this right wing group denounced any deplorable aspect or act of their own? Nevaire! The gall to question Kamal Haasan appalls!
Elaborate please...Quote:
Originally Posted by equanimus
App, ideology is not just about explicit preaching. And Kamal is definitely not "true to the art blah, art and politics should not mix". Infact, that his polit and social concerns get mixed up in perspective(and reception, too) with personal is what led to this thread.
Eq/Feeyaar, see this is where BR and BR got their accolades. Afterall, bharathiraja did provide a solution in the climax of AO :lol:
Ah...no !Quote:
Originally Posted by app_engine
Subtle and unsubtle pontification konjam thookkalaavE iRukkum.
Most famous example being:
Flau, idhai vidavA oru broad based soleesan kodukka mudiyin ?Quote:
You are hereby suitably censured and urged to attend to agricultural activities and the education of children
Plum, P_R
I think you're making a wholesale opinion based on 2 or 3 of his 100+ movies :-) Unfortunately, I haven't seen some of them (dasA / HR for e.g.)
My opinion is based on the aboorva sahO, MMKR, MP, salangai oli kinds - nothing much of an ideology there (possibly in 99% of his movies). Also, I don't follow much of his "talks" thru stages / media etc.
Anyways, இது ஒரு கருத்து :-)
And, UPO was just a remake.
Whatever compromises he made compared to wednesday must be due to the fact that he knows about TF audience (who don't have clear-cut vision to distinguish what a movie character speaks v/s what the actor's actual opinion).
'வீட்டுல வந்து குண்டு கிண்டு போட்டுறக்குடாதே'ன்னு கொஞ்சம் மாற்றங்கள் செய்திருக்கக்கூடும். இதப்போயி அவரது ஐடியாலஜி-கிய்டியாலஜின்னுக்கிட்டு (என்பது என் கருத்து) :-)
Movie making is a business - a pucca commercial businesses of compromises as the risk of loss is simply too high (next only to gambling with one's money).
So, the first ideology is to please theater goers and also not antagonize elements who can "block" theater goers.
Everything else comes after that :-)
(Same goes for many other businesses as well, I've seen staunch believers of one faith conducting festivals / rituals etc of others often contradicting their own - simply for the sake of business. Money is the main ideology of businessmen and everything else comes after that.)
Like one of my co-workers said - he was an engineer who chose to switch to finance career - "economy drives everything"!
Desperation? :lol2: Clever digressions! Nobody (IIRC from Kalyan or Sakala's post) approved / accepted / vouched for unacceptable aspects of a group branded right-wing. The point driven by them was "WHY COULD A SO-CALLED NEUTRAL DON'T HAVE THE GUTS TO KINDAL ADICHICHIFY / DENOUNCE / CONDEMN BLAH BLAH BLAH OF DEPLORABLE ASPECTS BY ALL GROUPS". Or are you saying that the evils / crimes / deplorable acts are done only by one group?
When was the last time we saw detailed reporting of acts of crimes by the holy priests in other groups? When was the last time we hear religious leaders condemn the attrocious acts of their own group? "Provocation is fine, retaliation is deplorable" - Hub's rules and FAQ's must be updated with this golden rule, as this has been the practice in general in most of the threads (Not specific to Mr. Kamal or this topic or this thread).
Start from parotta no: 1 :lol:
really?Quote:
Originally Posted by kalyan
sathya, I am tired of repeating myself. andha allegation allegationAvE irukku. modhall it was that, then it was something else, then it was cross kappathudhu, ipdi pala sambandham illAdha noolai kOrthu Kalyan kEkkarArnu solrEn.
EdhAvadhu oNNai theLivA eduthukittu one by one point pOgalAmA? marubadiyum naan kashtapatt pala post pOttavuNE convenientA pudhusa oru "cross kappaathudhu" pointla digress paNNa kUdadhu(You didnt but you didnt participate much) okayvA?
Kamal kitta enna anti brahmin prachnai. Allegation solliyAchu. Chargesheet eduthu vaingappA -apram pEsalAmngarEn.
ok, nAn help pandren
Crime # 1
1) Not Speaking against All Groups
idhai pathi mattum pEsi mudivukku vandhutu adutha crime-ku pOvOmA?
Plum, I think u missed my last line (Start from parotta No:1) :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Plum
Everbody here know the facts / ideologies / crimes by every other group (Atleast at high level, if not in detail), including one's own group. Hindu / Brahmin'sa avar kuttram kurai solradhaalayo / uyarvaa pEsaradhaalayo oNNum maarida poradhilla. Every individual and every group will have their own share of good deeds and bad deeds.
No group (Atheists, Religious Groups, Right Wing, Left Wing, Eagle Wing etc) is 100% perfect. Aanaa, speaking openly abt one and NOT CONDEMNING OTHERS WITH SAME VIGOR, TONE, LEVEL ETC doesn't cut much ice.
Ennoda theruvula 10 thirudan irundhaa, ellaarum thirudannu solra dhairiyam irundhaa naan oru nErmayaaLan. 2 pEra mattum mEdai pottu thittittu (Open Statements in interviews / Dialogues in movies / Public mockery .....), maththa 8 pErayum veetukkuLa ukkaandhuttu enakku naane thittittu irundhaa (Subtlety, covert message, hidden portrayal ......) angadhaan prachanai.
Plum, my points were never digressive (Please revisit if you have time and patience). I was just stressing and re-iterating on one point.
Ok, that is a very generic statement. Now, illustrate with
1) Examples from his Movies(relevant only for this point - this means "implying that Christian God is powerful" mAdhiri examples solla padAdhu :-) ) where he has <u> Mocked at Specific Brahmin Practices </u>. adhu ennannu modhalla analyse paNNuvOm
2) I understand that the other grouse is his speeches against Brahmins. What? When? How?
3) What specific practices(similar to the ones he criticised brahmins on) that you want him to critcise others?
Why because usually this point is made and then an aggregation of unrelated examples are used as illustration - a poor technique that doenst cut much ice with me.
No I got that. I mentioned you didnt discuss much anyway. My point is that an aggregation of multiple grouses against his various views truns into a generic statement like what you said. I want to get to the bottom of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by sathya_1979
ennoda Class XII or Engineering examsla kooda naan indha maadhiri questions paaththadhilla :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Plum
Covering 1&2:
I could not recollect the date of interview / channel / magazine. But, I have witnessed him mock at the practise of wearing sacred thread (This is after year 2000).
This is just one example (oru sOru padham), Kalyan and Sakala may add more.
Reg: point 3 in ur question:
It's not abt the practices alone. But, attrocities suffered by Hindus at the hands of others. For more details, please refer Indian Histroy Books.
pArunga, specificA sollungannu kEttavuNE, I think, I cant remember exactlylAm varudhu pArthingaLA? ;-)
1. enna sonnAr?
2. Was it at a serious ideology level or at a "brahmin mami talk tease" level"
Reg. #3, atrocities suffered by Hindus at othersku appuram varuvOm. Now we are talking about insults to one community.
10 varusham munnaadi kudutha interview date eppadinga nyaabagam irukkum?Quote:
Originally Posted by Plum
Also, whether it is ideology level attack or mami level tease - What is the need? And does he have the guts to tease females from other communities? Adhudhaan ennoda kosteen.
If he is talking abt social evils of caste system and the wrong deeds by all castes, I welcome it. But, why mock at beliefs of a group which is no way impacting / insulting to others?
I don't agree with this Anban. Where does one really draw the line between religion and its practices/beliefs? Who is Kamal to decide these beliefs or practices or rituals are not important? Adhu avarukku venaa mukkiyam illainnu feel panalaam. Adhukaaga innum illtreating widows, etc etc maadhiri sila outdated concepts ellaatha pathiyum onnum solla koodadhunnu naan sollavarala. But by the Kamal's characters' jibes against religion, avaru adha patthi oru 'scientific' study pannavE illainnu theriyudhu. Why the concepts of astrology, rebirth, etc came up, why one places vermillion, etc etc, what ultimately is the necessity for God/religion, I believe he has simply shot down questions like these without attempting to know anything about them. Or atleast that is what I infer from his characters. This of course is an issue with most theists too, only they are on the other side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anban
Aamam, idhu avaru eppadi theriyumaam? Eppadi vandha accept pannuvaaraam?Quote:
Kamal is the guy who wrote the lines "marumurai varuvathaai solli maainthavar vanthatheyy illai..."
Love and Light.
adhu avar opinion. unga opinion-ai sollaNumnA nInga padam edunga.
That is because his interests are purely social. Not in the pure metaphysical question.Quote:
Originally Posted by anbu_kathir
He is interested only to the extent that it affects simple people.
- an old man who chant kanakadArA stotram when in a prison cell. (ஹ்ம்ம்..கொட்டித்து...கூடவே தேளும் கொட்டித்து)
- or a henchman who sees God as a justice-dispenser, and who killed his daughter for his misdeeds, and thus decides to drop his sickle (சாமி எனக்கு நல்ல சாவே குடுக்காது தம்பி)
- an old lady who demands her way to heaven (என் கட்டை மோட்சத்துக்கு போயிரும்)
- as an aging nurse who rails at a God who is not dispensing justice (but even then doesn't seem to suspecting his existence, perhaps the need for bulwark deepens with misery).
Who else has raised these questions or engaged in this type of discourse in tamil film ?
Again, namma kadhavukku veLilErundhE what is the need-nu kEkka vENAmE? What I meant was what exactly did he say? I am trying to get to the bottom of what exactly is the irritant, remember?Quote:
Originally Posted by sathya_1979
pooNal pathi sonNAr kobam vandhudhungarInga - this is step 1 for me to understand your resentment. Step 2 is enna sonnAr? adhai thAn kEttEn. adhukkappuram avarai eNNai kopparaila pOdaradhA nylon kayirula thonga vudaradhAnnu yOsichu solla vasadhiyA irukkum :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plum
Totally agree. My only grouse is that while his intellectual brilliance is evident from his cinema, his stubbornness towards not learning anything new in religion is equally apparent. (not its historical or social aspects, but the actual religious, spiritual, and metaphysical aspects .. idha seriya purinjakkaadhadhu dhaanE prachanaiyE). To me, his religious opinions are quite similar to the opinion that certain theists have against evolution, without actually bothering to understand any of the scientific reasoning or evidence behind the matter under consideration.Quote:
That is because his interests are purely social. Not in the pure metaphysical question.
..
Who else has raised these questions or engaged in this type of discourse in tamil film ?
Read Kalyan and Sakala's posts for what he said, not abt the interview matter, but overall. I presume, this discussion is not ONLY abt one statement in an interview.
Ada marubadiyum angeye poreengale? Onnu onna fisal pannuvomnu dhaane sonnen? Modhallaye terms clearA explain paNNEnE? There are several charges being laid here, and purported proof for one charge is being used as evidence for another charge. It doesn't work that way. Its like saying uvar aanar ivar 1985-l thirudinaar so 1995la kolaiyum ivar dhaan panni iruppaar.
Idhai modhalla mudippom. Enna sonnar (excuse my persistence. Blanket level discussions don't do justice. Then it keeps on going to why doesn't he diss muslims. Let's figure what exactly did he say to hurt brahmins first. )
Ur Persistence is on par with Kamal's bashing of Hindus in the name of paguththarivu :D
Regarding examples, excuse my persistence - Please refer Kalyan and Sakala's examples!
No, you brought the pooNal charge. Adhai faisal paNNAma adutha caseku poga mudiyAdhu. kalyan has been very generic throwing one fantastic interpretation after another as proof. Sakala talked about brahmin ladies talk. adhukkum varvOm. But I want to faisal iqbal the pooNal matter first. Again, if you might excuse me, enna sonnAr? because you said you got offended by that speech. So it is presumably not Kalyan or SKV who (have so far confessed) to being offended by THAT speech. So the burden of answer has to lie with you :-)
a_k, idhu prachinaiyE illai.Quote:
Originally Posted by anbu_kathir
I don't think, say, a better understanding of the nature of universe, would alter what he has to say.
I am not talking about KH's personal approach to religion alone. What I said was for the society as a whole. Anyway, understanding the universe is the job of science. Religion, OTOH, is about how the cosmos and its mysteries are related to oneself individually. That, IMHO, has the potential of changing all activities of life.Quote:
Originally Posted by P_R