Kamalhassan's Ideology in his films

Plum, i did not get offended by what Mr. Kamal said. I am not the kind who gets provoked by such kind of jibes / mocks. And am not interested in ur verdict / Justifications on the motives behind such talks :D It is not going to change facts, history, Mr. Kamal's views and ideology or mine or urs. I could see we are heading nowhere. Thanks for ur patience and persistence in explaining counter view points :notworthy: If all hubbers are of such breed (explain POV without sweat words, wind up, digression etc), this forum would be a better place to discuss.

Plum,

இந்துக்கடவுள்களை நக்கல் செய்தாலும் அதிலும் பாரபட்சம் காட்டுகிறார் கமல் என்ற குற்றத்தை வைக்கிறேன் :)

1) ஏன் கந்தசாமி படையாச்சியை ஒரு வைணவ பக்தனாக காட்டவில்லை? சரி.. வைணவமும் வேண்டாம்.. நடுநிலையா ஒரு அய்யனாரையோ, ஒரு மாரியம்மாவையோ அவரது இறைவனாக காட்டியிருக்கலாம்.. அது ஏன் குறிபார்த்து, "தென்னாடுடைய சிவனே போற்றி!" என சிவபெருமானுக்கு அம்பெய்தல்?

2) ஏன் இந்த நக்கல், நையாண்டி எல்லாம் தேவர் மகனில் வரவில்லை? அங்க மட்டும், கௌதமியிடம் இந்தக் கோயில்லதான் நம்ம கல்யாணம் என ஆசை ஆசையாய் சொல்கிறாரே? மேலும், ஊரே தேர்கூடி இழுக்கும்போதுகூட அங்கே தனது பகுத்தறிவு நக்கலை காட்டவில்லையே?

அன்பே சிவம் என சொன்னதற்கு பதிலா, அன்பே வைணவம் என்று இருந்திருந்தாலோ, காந்தி இறக்கும் தருவாயில் "ஹே ராம்!"ற்கு பதில் "ஹே சிவா!" எனச் சொல்லியிருந்தால் கமல் எப்படி அணுகியிருப்பார் எனவும் Room போட்டு யோசிக்கச் சொல்கிறது!

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Originally Posted by venkkiram

மாதவ படையாச்சியை

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"அன்பே ஒன்பது ரூபாய்" பார்த்தா இப்படிப்பட்டக் குழப்பமெல்லாம் வரும்.

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Originally Posted by anbu_kathir

Religion, OTOH, is about how the cosmos and its mysteries are related to oneself individually. That, IMHO, has the potential of changing all activities of life.

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Which will take its own sweet time for people to figure out. And while (and possibly even after) that happens, we are still governed by societal norms, which -whether we like it or not - is moved by the religion - as understood by the lowest-common-denominator, enshrined in practices etc. These are the things that I see Kamal reacting to in his films.

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Originally Posted by P_R

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Originally Posted by venkkiram

மாதவ படையாச்சியை

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"அன்பே ஒன்பது ரூபாய்" பார்த்தா இப்படிப்பட்டக் குழப்பமெல்லாம் வரும்.

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:lol:

Sathya, what I was trying to engage into was into a meaningful understanding of which aspect of Kamal, his thoughts and his cinema is deemed as against Brahmins, or indeed, Hinduism. As equa said, I personally don't feel any such.

So I'd really like to see where the other side is coming from. To be frank, Kalyan's examples are not helpful at all :( . Otoh, there are questions that he(kamal, not kalyan) raises which are very, very important - and this within meaningful and engaging cinema - and it saddens me that people refuse to engage with those, because of the ideological divide. And as I see it I am not defending Kamal here(you won't find me around when box office kamal vs rajni rounds are going) but what he represents for me here. Again, the refusal to engage might be because of a triggered reaction to what is taken as a personal affront from what he says. That is precisely why I am interested in knowing the specifics there.

Kalyan, you are free to take up the mantle to articulate your specific grouses :)

Venkkiram, I see small black squares in your post. I am afraid that's how it is going to be for sometime now as I am limited now in access

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Originally Posted by P_R

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Originally Posted by venkkiram

மாதவ படையாச்சியை

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"அன்பே ஒன்பது ரூபாய்" பார்த்தா இப்படிப்பட்டக் குழப்பமெல்லாம் வரும்.

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நன்றி. திருத்திவிட்டேன்.

Plum, thanks for ur reply and PM. Am shopping with wife and kid now :D will reply in detail tonight!

Had my fellowship exams today. hence couldnt participate in the discussions over the last 24 hours. will join you guys shortly :) :wave:

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Originally Posted by Plum

Ok, that is a very generic statement. Now, illustrate with
1) Examples from his Movies(relevant only for this point - this means "implying that Christian God is powerful" mAdhiri examples solla padAdhu :-) ) where he has <u> Mocked at Specific Brahmin Practices </u>. adhu ennannu modhalla analyse paNNuvOm

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Some of the things which had Brahmins in poor light.

1. Avvai Shanmugi - The Relation between the Shanmugi and Mudaliar...
2. Dasavathaaram - I still don't understand how that paati finds Poovaragavan as her son.. :oops:
3. Panchathathiram - Iyer - Yugi Sethu - asking him to stay with a dead body.. 'Brahmana poi ponathukooda irukka solriyae..'
4. Anbe Sivam - The boy who gets the blood and dies, is of the brahmin family(I remember seeing the parents wearing Brahmin type of dress) - His name is 'Poun' which he related with 'Poun KUNJU'

PS; I am not a brahmin but i feel that these are hurtful for that community when they normally dont do these type of things.
My friend is a brahmin and his father doesn't like KH
Naan list panni irukkuradhula edhavadhu thappa irundhuchuna, periyavanga mannipai kaetukiren.. Especially about Anbe Sivam. I dont have DVDs with me to verify this before posting...

karthik, i dnt see anything offensive wrt 2, 3. 1 and 4, dnt remember and need to revisit. Brahmins dead body thookka koodaadhunnu irukkaa? Am not sure. I have seen many carry dead bodies to sudukaadu.
WRT dasa, paatti was under the illusion that her son is alive. When that defence mechanism is broken, she visualizes poovaraghan as her son, cry out to pacify herself. The only grouse here is characterization of the person accompanying paatti as jaadhi pisaasu. thamizh naattila, after 1947, nadandha ethana jaadhi kalavarathula brahmins kaaraNamaa irundhirukkaanga? Dnt have the exact percent numbers, but, generally brahmins are the ones who had involved on intercaste marriages more than any other. Jaadhi pisaasunnu maththavangaLa paaththu avaraala dhairiyamaa solla mudiyumaa?

also, read in today's news paper that tamilnadu is 5th in india in violence against dalits - oppression, two tumbler, refusal to entry into temples, separate pond, sudukaadu etc. How many of these are by brahmins? Can somebody throw light on these?

Sathya,

Brahmins dead body thookka koodaadhunnu sattam edhuvum kidayadhu.. :)

But why that dialogue was explicitly told... That's where the potshot comes

WRT Dasa, IMO, patti has gone further mad by not able to identify her own son.. Andha Tsunami la Poovaragavan mattum thaan sethu ponaara???

dasa - we can consider it as linking of characters.

also, many of us wud have read the attrocities against dalits in many villages. in most of the cases the crime by so-called other upper castes are let off with a petty fine. How many / what percentage of these are by brahmins? Oppression is in practise for thousands of years by many castes. Why call it with a name brahminism / paarppaneeyam? Considering recent history of last 50 to 60 years, nadandha thappula ethana percent are by brahmins?

I am not digressing. Thappu yaar senjirundhaalum thappudhaan. Aanaa oru kurippitta samoogaththa kurai sollumbOdhu, kurai solvadharkkaana kaaraNaNgaL valuvaanadhaaga irukkiradhaa? this is what i want to find out.

Sathya,
History doesn't start with 1947. That a Brahmin wouldn't hurt a fly and (he/she/caste system) is absolved of all crimes is a very simplistic and convoluted "explanation".
(i was about to apologize for making the right wing comments till i read these posts)

OK, let me do it anyway - i owe this anyway. I apologize for addressing dear friends Ajay and Dr.Kalyan, Sathya as right wing Hindus etc..
However, i don't get the persistent "digression" point anyway, adhu kidakkattum....

I'm a believer now but i'm still a fan of Aandavar, for the record. I was angry with him after UPO, for the exact opposite reasons from those cited here - if anyone could get hurt watching that film, IMO, its the Muslims. Hey Ram, Dasavatharam and UPO are evidence enough for whatever the edhir katchi is looking for. Idhukku mela solradhukku onnum illai.

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Originally Posted by Plum

adhu avar opinion. unga opinion-ai sollaNumnA nInga padam edunga.

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:notworthy: :yes: (of course, everybody has the right to disagree/diss works of a maker, but statements like "Who gave him the right to talk about religion" , "What thesis has he done", "what management programme has he done" deserve this response. Illa, Kurudhippunal-la sonna madhiri "same to you" no solliralaam :lol:

Bala is a believer now ! :)

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Originally Posted by sathya_1979

Jaadhi pisaasunnu maththavangaLa paaththu avaraala dhairiyamaa solla mudiyumaa?

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Neenga Thevar Magan padam paatheengala?

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Originally Posted by Anban

Bala is a believer now ! :)

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Amaam amaam

And vetti saicha dhaan kutravaali-ya? I mean what are we discussing here? It seems to imply that Thevars (for example) are the only veriyars and Brahmins are just innocuous curd rice eaters, who have nothing to do with all this mess!

Bala, thanks for the detailed POV. Nobody is claiming here that one group alone is innocent, why unnecessary target etc. As I mentioned thappu yaar senjaalum thappudhaan. every group is responsible for its share of good and bad deeds. Y pointing 4 of 5 fingers at one alone? Dnt say that they have done the maximum offences. Appuram chitraguptan maadhiri kaNakku sollaNum :D as I mentioned to Plum yesterday - this is a standoff. Followers of Mr. Kamal's ideologies are not going to accept POV of other side, same with other side as well. Am fine with whatever we had discussed so far. Nice to see a healthy discussion on an ideology thread without wind ups, swear words and warnings. Hats off to everyone.

And BTW, history is not from 1947 alone. But, they are a part of history too. if somebody says that going by history, one group merits mocks, no group will escape this premise.

Thanks once again. Have a great day.

Sathya, as Bala said history extends before 1947. Brahmins are in prison for a reason. 63 years of movement away from creating caste divisions, could only be nannadathai(I am being blanket here but I don't mean offence nor is this a broadbrush stroke) - a requirement not an option or a privilege we grant on society. If it is true that the whole of new gen has done away with the past mentality(which as I said is certainly not true completely) then that is? A good beginning. But how does Kamal treat his brahmin characters? What situations he puts them in?
Let's take the dasa character - of all the quoted, that is the only signifcant objection I've seen so far. What is he doing exactly there as jaadhi veri. Simply trying to walk away from an environment, he is not at all comfy with. The jaadhi veri used by paatti is not a heavy word at all. All the son can do there is walk away with paatti and return to his agraharam ghetto. Where earlier, lower castes were ghettoized outside the town to maintain brahmin purity, all that can be done now is to ghettoize oneself to maintain that purity. Isn't that potent enough? The fact is Brahmins are not dominant opinion makers today. The fact is they were once. And the net result was the caste system we have. So culpability for past exists.(Today's opinion makers who are responsible for maintaining the system - will history catchup with them? Yes. But when they cease to be dominant, not now). Yes, today's individual brahmin isn't to be held up for that. But that's hardly the implication here right?
Is Kamal talking about azhagiya singar there as the direct resposnible for two tumblers etc. He simply is not addressing it at all there. The point being made is different - and that point is not that the brahmin is evil still maintaining caste divisions. It is simply that the most potent effect of brahmin caste veri can only be ghettoizing himself! Well, not exactly, but that's what it amounts to.
Ones got to differentiate between what one's views on the role of brahmin in modern society and Kamal's criticism of some other thing as a negation of that view.


And as Bala said, dasa, hey ram and thevar magan have enough questions posed to today's dominant groups as well as the muslim bashing demanded of him. Those points are important and deserve explicit discussion.(Again I wouldn't call it bashing but something that can offend muslims just like he seems to have offended brahmins as can be seen)
I can't be more open and honest than this - almost giving away my society given identity, which I don't like to publicly discuss - and only fair would be anban or bala expanding on what they meant there.

Plum, enna solreenga? :confused2: en sittrarivukku ettumpadi simpleaa sollunga.

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Originally Posted by sathya_1979

Plum, enna solreenga? :confused2: en sittrarivukku ettumpadi simpleaa sollunga.

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அவரும் கமல் போல பல layer-ல பேசுறார் :) எப்படி புரியும்?

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Originally Posted by venkkiram

அன்பே வைணவம் என்று இருந்திருந்தாலோ

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anbe venkataachalam nnu vasoolrajala solluvaar, that too with nakkals. so saivaite and vaishnavaite bashing justified illaya??

after nambi dies, nambi sethathu sivanin seyalum alla, antha nambi nambiyum kaapaatraamal ponathu vishnuvin soozhchiyum alla

so he is trying to portray that it's not siva or sishnu but it's nambi's mad patriotism for vishnu which took his life

Keeping aside all these Ideological POV, Counterviews etc, I have one question.

The so-called Hindu-Bashing, Anti-Brahminism etc are on the prowl in mainstream cinema, drama, literature and interviews, in TN, for quite a long time. Not sure if Kamal had started it or Kamal's contribution to this ideology is at the max %.

So, why are we discussing this as Mr. Kamal's filmi attribute or persona or ideology? His ideology is multi-faceted and have much more to it, than THIS POV.

There are many other in film industry, who are having such ideology, right? Why did we pick Mr. Kamal alone for this discussion?

சத்யா,
ஜாதி பேரை சொல்லி அல்லது பகுத்தறிவு பேசி வேஷம் போடும் ஒட்டு பொறுக்கிகள், வாழ்த்துவதற்கும் (சிறுபான்மை செல்வமே) ஊழலிலிருந்து தப்புவதற்கும் ( அவர் தலித் என்பதால் ஆதிக்க சக்திகள் செய்யும் சதி) ஜாதியை பயன்படுத்தும் அரசியல்வாதிகளுக்கும்,

சாதிமதங்களை கிண்டல் செய்வதை பொழுதுபோக்காக வைத்திருப்பவர்கள்,

எதை சொன்னால் கல்லா நிறையும் என்று பார்த்து பார்த்து செய்பவர்கள்

இவர்களுக்கும் உண்மையான பகுத்தறிவு வாதியான கமலுக்கும் வித்யாசம் இல்லையா? ஐவரும் சில சமயம் அவர்கள் அளவுக்கு கீழிறங்கி செல்வதால் அவர் மேல் வரும் வருத்தம் தான் இவை எல்லாம்

Bala,
Why apologies and all.Cool,I know no offence meant.

Plum,
By persisting in asking for specific lines,scenes,interviews, are you implying that Kamal does not have an anti-Hindu/brahmin stance?????

Also,
The reason this thread came into effect was because I,kalyan,sakala,sathya and maybe a couple of others said he is biased in his opinions in the sense that he takes on things selectively.

Are you saying no?

The cross thing in dasa mentioned by kalyan came in much later right?

If you want to take one thing at a time,here is the first one(actually 3 in 1)-I accuse Mr.Kamal Haasan of being selective in his criticisms.
I accuse him of not taking on other groups because it might result in a reaction which might hurt him physically or his image.He is also very keen to explain any anti-minority(religion wise) sentiments expressed which he does not bother doing for the so-called majority.
I accuse him of taking selective people for granted becos they do not have the courage/guts/unity to sully him and it's fashionable to do so.

Idhe discuss pannovom before going on to the next one.No hard feelings and I am receptive for information which might change my opinion on this.I have no ego and am willing to say I was wrong if indeed I was.

PS:My next visit to the hub will only be tomorrow 3pm IST OR on tuesday morning.So no body please think that I threw a stone and vanished. :D

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Originally Posted by sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar

சத்யா,
ஜாதி பேரை சொல்லி அல்லது பகுத்தறிவு பேசி வேஷம் போடும் ஒட்டு பொறுக்கிகள், வாழ்த்துவதற்கும் (சிறுபான்மை செல்வமே) ஊழலிலிருந்து தப்புவதற்கும் ( அவர் தலித் என்பதால் ஆதிக்க சக்திகள் செய்யும் சதி) ஜாதியை பயன்படுத்தும் அரசியல்வாதிகளுக்கும்,

சாதிமதங்களை கிண்டல் செய்வதை பொழுதுபோக்காக வைத்திருப்பவர்கள்,

எதை சொன்னால் கல்லா நிறையும் என்று பார்த்து பார்த்து செய்பவர்கள்

இவர்களுக்கும் உண்மையான பகுத்தறிவு வாதியான கமலுக்கும் வித்யாசம் இல்லையா? ஐவரும் சில சமயம் அவர்கள் அளவுக்கு கீழிறங்கி செல்வதால் அவர் மேல் வரும் வருத்தம் தான் இவை எல்லாம்

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Sakala, thanks for the reply. uNmaiyaana paguththarivu / secularism will aim at finding solutions. Not stop at mocking. I have never seen any one secularist / atheist / paguththarivuvaadhi who had done that, in real life.

Revolution and social-equality paththi pEsuravanga is not aimed at creating a level playing field. But, hell-bent on age-old retribution towards only one out of the 100 offenders, irrespective of whether the reports from the past is 100% true.

What is the solution / suggestion to eliminate the evils of casteism (Note: Not abt brahmins alone, but, casteism as a whole), by Mr. Kamal? Enakku avarOda followers aLavukku avar padangaL paththi nyaanam kedayaadhu. People like Bala can throw light. This can lead to the next topic of discussion on his ideologies, rather than getting stuck at only one.

Cinefan, again I am breaking your accusation into specifics. You want to axiomate without any example/proof. The problem is when you drilldown to what is insulting, you get "setha ponam pakkathula irukka sonnaar" kinds. So you have to tell what exactly? You are the one offended, so you have to say what is the offence. How can I assume that offence without being told by you?

plum, there are direct mentions and attacks on one specific community. enakku, avar hindu bashing enra perla pannurathu kooda specifim community bashing aagathaan theriyuthu. examples ale spilled all over this thread

satya, he is offering one solution which he is following too. completely ignore caste and religion in life. completely. mostly he is following this and there is nothing like wearing an Manjal Thundu for unknown reason etc.

While his overall ideologies are perfect, the way he pinpoints the ups and downs of the soceity wrt caste and relegion, takes a hit as there is no uniformity in that.

whatever it is, he IS offering a solution, but its very tough for one to follow

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Originally Posted by sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar

plum, there are direct mentions and attacks on one specific community. enakku, avar hindu bashing enra perla pannurathu kooda specifim community bashing aagathaan theriyuthu. examples ale spilled all over this thread

satya, he is offering one solution which he is following too. completely ignore caste and religion in life. completely. mostly he is following this and there is nothing like wearing an Manjal Thundu for unknown reason etc.

While his overall ideologies are perfect, the way he pinpoints the ups and downs of the soceity wrt caste and relegion, takes a hit as there is no uniformity in that.

whatever it is, he IS offering a solution, but its very tough for one to follow

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Similarly all religions have said "Believe in God, live without bias against any living being". Idhuvum acceptabledhaan illayaa?

It's like saying - There are rules and regulations in Indian Constitution (Or constitution of any country for that matter). Many criminals have misused it and got away without suffering punishment for the crimes. So, let's do away with the constitution.

Skv, thirumba thirumba examples are strewn throughnu solrInga. UruppadiyA oNNum theriyalaiyE enakku. What I think is it is the image building on itself. What I saw "offensiveA sonnAr" apdinnu allegations irukku neraiya. Buut enna sonnar andha instancela offensiveAnu kEtta badhil illai. Are we just consuming his image? And is that precisely because he rejects the religion, caste as you mentioned? Oru hinduvA irundhuttu hindu religionai odharittane-nu varra varutham is feeding the feeling that he has offendedA? Again and again, you can't say he has to be balanced in criticism. Very ofen, bashing happens because you feel strongly about it. There can be no conscious balance in "feeling strongly". Again, I am trying to understand did he say like "poonool anibavargaL madayargaL" or "pooNool aNivadhu some offensive adjective" or did he just reject poonool anivadhu? That is why I asked what he said. But nobody answered. And that is why I don't want to engage with mere allegations.

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Originally Posted by Cinefan

I accuse him of taking selective people for granted becos they do not have the courage/guts/unity to sully him and it's fashionable to do so.

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IMO to a large extent, yes.
However your line seems to suggest that Hindus too should unite and react regressively so that folks like Kamal, would not dare criticize. That is where I disagree.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sathya_1979

(Note: Not abt brahmins alone, but, casteism as a whole), by Mr. Kamal?

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1) அது மட்டுமில்லாம நாமென்ன ஜாதி அவன் என்ன ஜாதி - Mouli in aboorva sagOdarargaL (said with disgust in his face, about Anand)

2)
Selvam: நானும் உங்க ஜாதி தான்
Madanbob: (all smiles) ஓஹ்..நாய்டுவா :lol:

3)
Selvam: (calls him by his name)
Delhi Ganesh: எல்லாரும் என்னை பிள்ளைன்னு கூப்டுவாஹ
Selvam: அது நீங்க உங்க பிள்ளைய கூப்டுக்குங்க

4)
தேவனா இருக்குறது முக்கியமா மனுஷனா இருக்குறது முக்கியமா (idhai open-A vida eppidi 'nga thitta mudiyin ??)

5)
Madanbob: கள்ளனய்யா நீர்...
Nasser: ஹ்ம்....மறவன்

6)
மண்ணாங்கட்டி: ஐயே வா
பஞ்சாபகேசன்: இல்ல....நான் இன்னிக்கி ஒரு பொழுது தான்...அதுவும் அந்த தட்டுல வாழக்கா துண்டு...மீன் மாதிரி
மண்ணாங்கட்டி: ஆக மொத்தம்...நீ நம்ம ஊட்ல சாப்ட மாட்ட அதான்னே...உடு

7)
(sic) பேய்க்காமன்: சாதிக்காரன விட்டுட்டு...நாய்க்கனுக்கு முடிச்சு குடுப்பேனா

estra estra estra

Of all this, you seem to take special notice of only 6. And 6 is more 'real' than most stereotypical jabs made at Brahmins in TFI. :-)

more real? pureela.

A register speaking sinister scheming untouchability practitioner is not real character. So we can brush it off as a silly portrayal. But Kamal hardly ever caricatures like that. His portrayals of prejudice mostly (though not always) come across plausible. That is why they are discomfiting.

P-R, epdi pOnAlum marubadiyuum "kamal is anti brahmin" idhukku bahdil sollunganu generalA dhaan solraanga. Unga kitta handover pannittu vedikkai paarkaren.

Why not discuss ideas, why keep loopinmg back to discussing the person by formulating in terms of the "person offended us. Answer this". Why do I ask repeatedly wxpresss the offence. Because that leads to discussion on the ideas and thoughts. Instead, person levelleye discuss pannalaamna. Ok I am not interested ib kamal the celebrity but his thoughts and that is what I am trying to discuss. If accepting that Kamal is anti-brahmin coward will help you go to specifics and thoughts and whatexaclt howexaclty offended you, I am willing to do that and go further else if nobody is interested in representing brahmin or hindu hurt and willing to explain it, :wave: and :handover: to moderator saar.