TAMIL is much ELDER to SANSKRIT !
I have read the previous discussion forums comparing Tamil and
sanskrit. Its true that Tamil and sanskrit have complimented each
other i.e Sanskrit has borrowed many words from Tamil and Vice
versa. But it completely saddens me to see that some of them
have concluded saying Tamil has been derived from sanskrit. I
have made a year long research on this area and I have written a
article based on all my findings. I have also published my article as
blogs in various sites. Plz check the URL
http://testoftime.blogspot.com/ or mail to
vasanthan.b@rediffmail.com to get the article as PDF file.
Vasanthan B
TAMIL is much elder to SANSKRIT
Dear Thiru Vasanthan,
I am glad to note your enthusiastic efforts and lively Research presentation.
Before I seek your clarifications on several points on your Report, I have to put forth here one RUDIMENTARY TRUTH here, based on authentic Research studies by many of the Non-British Historians.
(1) The FIRST CLASSICAL LANGUAGE of Humanity?
The FIRST LANGUAGE ever spoken by Mankind anywhere in the whole world is.... undoubtedly.... TAMIL only originated from North India, on the banks of Saraswathi River while the rest of the country was only Forests. Even during the Ramayana period we find that the South India as also the Nasik region of Western India was so. In the regions of the present Turkey, Burma, and Middle-East the Humans were only Savages. The rest of the world mostly were capped up with Ice.
(2) Who the ARYANS?
British dictators purposively made the false histories written just with a malefic intention of DIVIDE AND RULE Policy over the huge mass of enslaved but wise Indians on the whole.
Dr Ambedkar used to call himselves as the True Aryan.
Mahakavi Bharathi says...
"Aariya" naattinar aanhmaiyoadu iyatrum seeriya muyarchigalh.
"Aariyarum" nara veeriyarum...... Vandhae maatharam
Whom does the Tamil-poet Bharathi mean as ARYANS and which country does he call as ARIYANAADU ?
It is totally wrong to say that the so called ARYANS entered into India as Domiciles from the Middle-East and that the most Ancient people of India were called as DRAVIDIANS. In fact there were no separate Races as Aryans and Dravidians. The so called Aryans were the Indian nationals BY BIRTH and NOT BY DOMICILE. There were ONLY ONE RACE initially all over India, then confined to only the Northern part and that Race was the Aryans. the descrption of their complexion height and look are all the False stories, Myth and Imaginary creations made by the British rulers who invaded on the Indian Culture too.
There were only one mass of people in North India, in the days of Linguistic origination, who were subsequently named as ARYANS in Sanskrit, which means ... Uthaman... Great-Man. In Sanskrit Literature and stories we can find the wife addressing the Husband as ARYA. Even Seetha-Dhevi addressed so as per Valmiki Ramayana.
(3) Who the DRAVIDA?
First of all we have to think over, from which Language this Word DRAVIDA has emanated? Is it a Tamil word?. No Not at all. Because the Tamil Language does not have the cluster of letters like Dra, Pla, Kru etc., whereas Sanskrit and all other Indian Languages have so.
In fact the word DRAVIDA is a Sanskrit term, the Sanskrit DHAATHU for which is ... "DRU".... meaning ..."MOVE".
From the same Dhaathu, the word "Dravyam" meaning Money / Wealth since it always passes from hand to hand and does not remain at one place.
And why the so called Dravidians were named so?
The Sanskrit word DRAVID means WAGABOND ("Naadoadi" in Tamil)
Why should they be called so ?
One section of the people were highly intelligent, enterprising and ADVENTUROUS enough (similar to British) to boldly venture into new areas of the forests and make an advanced life there. This sections of people were mockingly called as WAGABONDS (Dravid in Sanskrit) by their own brethren who were contented to be static in the specific regions already well-developed. Whereas the moving Indians advanced more ahead by means of wisdom, sincerety and hard toil.... as the History speaks of the Tamilians of Sri Lanka, Malaysia, Singapore and elsewhere, well-known for such exemply Human potentialities coupled with with high human calibre.
The proverbs .... YAADHUM OORAE YAAVARUM KAELHIR.... and ....
.... THIRAI KADAL OADIYUM DHIRAVIYAM THAEDU....
.... are only in Tamil, and in no ther Languages anywhere in the world.
(4) Origin of the new Language SANSKRIT?
The first Group of Mankind speaking Tamil had no Religions of their own but were worshipping the Sun as the Super-power. They were mostly eating Pond-Fish and Agro-products.. Later the Rishis came to these regions, who called themselves as the messengers of God.
The local people believed it because they had some Super-human powers and declared that they had seen God with naked eyes. New skilss like Manthra-sathram, Dhanur-Sasthram (Bow & Arrow), Ayur-Vedam, Jothisham, Vaana Sasthram etc. added honour to that subsequent classical language. That is how the Hinduism originated in India., through which the Language Sanskrit were taught by the Rishis, along with the Vedas as Gospels, naming it as the VOICE OF GOD. That is how Sanskrit is called as Deva-Bhasha for Hindus, (similar to Arabic for Muslims and Hebrew for Christians, since their Gospels are written in those Languages).
Kings encouraged that Deva-basha, spread it amongst the Linguistic scholars but considered Tamil as a cheap Tribal Language and inferior to Sanskrit., which alone were suited for the Intellectuals.
So the Kings and the Scholars were conversing in Sanskrit while the people were speaking Tamil. In course of time both the languages got mixed up in different forms at different regions and got named as various initial Offshoot Languages like Pali and Prakrit.
We can note in Sakunthalam original text written by the Sanskrit poet Kalidasa,....
King Dushyantha speaks to Sakunthalai ( Tribal-girl) in SANSKRIT .... !!!
.... while Sakunthalai as also the Fishermen speak in PRAKRIT ???
Since Sanskrit was attributed as the Godly Language it was given high honour by the Kings, without whose adequate support, Tamilians could not comparatively flourish well. So they had to move down far south towards the dense forests leaving off their original settlements in North India.
(5) How different Languages within ONE COUNTRY of ONE RACE?
After several centuries of origination of Tamil, these various groups of people migrated to different regions of North India, speaking the admixed forms of Tamil and Sanskrit with further additions of foreign languages like Arab, Persian, Portugese, Latin and Greek in different modes., named them as separate languages. .... If the Tamilians of Kanyakumari, Thirunelveli, Coimbatore, Madurai,Chennai and SriLanka do not mutually meet for more than a century, the various forms of Tamil they are using now would have been named as different Languages other than Tamil.
(6) TAMIL ... not a Deva-basha (DIVINE LANGUAGE) ?
Subsequently... rather very late after several centuries... the Tamil-speaking section of people of one and the same race came to know that TAMIL ALSO IS A DEVA-BASHA (Divine-Language) since they found that even an ordinary man, an illiterate Hunter, innocent Farm-labour, and an ignorant Pot-maker could speak with Gods in Tamil as well as see Him in different forms of their choice as Lord Vishnu, Vinayaka, Siva, Muruha, Kali and so on ... the Deities of the same Religion, so called SANATHANA-DHARMA or Hinduism. and the
... Gods themselves declared TAMIL ALSO IS THE DEVA-BASHA (Divine-Language)
Any Comment .... or... Criticism?
Tamil is much elder to sanskrit
Thiru shudaama,
I complement something to your passage.
The indiran worship and indu religion was evolved out from tamil culture.
In the sameway tamil produced paly(vada pali) language. Paly turned into Pragrid. Then Sanskirit was formed in archesstrated way. Again sanskrit mixed with tamil formulating other dravidian languages.
Tamil was not originated in north but in deep south kondwana kingdom- lemuria kingdom,kumari river,kamari mountain ,pagruli river background.
We can now prove that through archeology,anthropology and geology enviromental science.
All 32 dielects of tamil are now spoken by tribes in southern hemisphere of earth namely south america,south africa and australia.
Hence languages/ men migrated from south to north. south to north west and so on.
If all world historieans find more evidences in this perspective it will help to make a globalised version of history.
The other way of finding out history will be creating lot of confusions and we have to again and again switch over to new theories like aryan theory, meditaranean theory and Central asian theory which are now proved to be wrong.
There are lot of evidences proved that like americans today tamilieans overrule the world through their businesses and culture before 3000 years back.
Tamils contribute to eriteria,kaltheya,babylonea,Greece,Egypt and other meditaranean civilizations.
Tamil neel/neer is now nile. Puramedugal now Pyramids. 'Erithirai' now Red sea/eriteria. 'Aram' now Arabia. Thilmunai now pagrain(old name of partain in thilmun). Hundreds of words of tamil origin in Indo european language(a wrong classification made by maxmuller).
Go through a book called 'dravidar varalaru' if any objection you can call it tamil varalaru- written by sothi prakasam.
The same person has written 'Aryan varalaru'.
Hence tamils hereafter should not depend on sanskrit.
They should have a vision that sanskrit root words are with tamil.
All sanskrit words are one or combination of tamil words phonetically changed/shrinked.
In this way if the perception is formulated a new breakthrough would be produced in history.
Tamil is much elder to sanskrit
Dear geno & sudhaama,
I need not tell,"Let us not have personal attack in discussion" to you. Because, you are all,I detect from you discussions, the persons of good calibre and knowledge.
Afterall nobody wins over another in debate. At the sametime debate can bring forth some realities of topic. Let us concentrate on issues and their supportives.
While talking about crucial issues there is a chance of our wordings move in different path. We all should try to avoid at the maximum such happenings.
Due to personal attack the flow of informations and discussions stopped abruptly and those who follow your discussions get disappointment.
When sudhaama could not answer Mr. Nedunchezhiyan's queries Mr. Geno would have concluded with his remarks in support of Mr.Nedunchezhiyans views.
Then everybody would have the satisfaction of eating the full meal of discussion.
Every ideology turns negative(atleast one or two -ve side effects) in its extreme level is true in world history. Atheism/culture revolutionary is not ruled out to this.
In an urgent haste move to revive social emancipation(which was required also) The god inththran/varunan heritage was thrashed out which happen to be a proof of culture that led the north Indians stick to sarasvathi culture of india and claim this was the prime culture of India than sinthu valley.
The secular character of tamil sangam literature also attacked by such groups telling tamils dont have any history.
We need not blame separately any social group and all the society is responsible for that worst nature of caste system in India.
I expect best concluding remarks from geno to complete the discussion.
f.s.gandhi
Tamil is elder to sanskrit
Dear Mr.RSSkaran,
// Sanskrit is our rashtra basha. we should learn sanskrit to read our religious literature.//
Can you explain more what rashtra basha means ?
And Dear Mr. geno,
I am not able to read your column here because I don' t have tamil font installed into my computer.
Can anybody give information to download and install such font
from web ? What is the way ?
f.s.gandhi
A Reply to daninos article
Let me first clarify something, the article of Daninos was something I stumbled upon on the net and posted it here because I thought it would be interesting to find out what other people thought about this.
pirayaani
Here is a counterreply:
"let us take an unbiased look at the cultural backdrop of early Tamil
society and try to make out some of its mainstays... Also, I will not
deal here with the origin of South Indian people and languages, or
with the nature of the process often called "Aryanization of the
South" (I prefer the word "Indianization," used in this context by an
archaeologist"
That sentence tells you how unbiased he is. "Indianization" indeed.
Meaning, of course, that he thinks Tamil culture was not Indian before
the northern influences started. Why can't vedicists accept that
"vedic" and "Indian" are not synonymous?
Actually, that article is full of distortions and mistakes. Here are
a few examples:
<<Court poets proudly claim that the Chera kings conquered North
Indian kingdoms and carved their emblem onto the Himalayas.>>
Yes, and the very next line says "imizhkadal vEli THAMIZHAKAM
viLanka". This is a very clear indication that Tamizhakam was
considered different from the conquered lands, and yet the author
completely suppresses this line.
<<They clearly saw the subcontinent as one entity ; thus the
Purananuru says they ruled over 'the whole land / With regions of
hills, mountains, / Forests and inhabited lands / Having the Southern
Kumari / And the great Northern Mount / And the Eastern and Western
seas / As their borders....'>>
This is totally incorrect. The "great northern mountains" are the
tirumalai hills which have for aeons been accepted as the borders of
Tamilakam. To try and represent them as the Himalayas (which are
always mentioned by name as "amaiya" in the sangam texts) either
displays utter ignorance or is deliberate falsification.
<<Let us briefly turn to the famous Tamil epic Shilappadikaram>>
Yes, let us. Especially the conclusion of the Maduraikkandam: "vaDa
Ariyar paDaikaDanthu then thamizhnADorungukANa puraithIr kaRpin
thEvi". Note especially how Ilangovadikal contrasts "vada Ariyar"
with "then thamizh naadu". And yet this man still insists that "they
clearly saw the subcontinent as one entity"!!
He also totally misrepresents the Dravidianist viewpoint.
Dravidianists *actually* say that the sangam literature clearly shows
vedic culture to have been a "foreign" element that was starting to
make inroads into the ancient Dravidian culture. This man, however,
misleadingly pretends that we are arguing that sangam literature was
uninfluenced by vedic culture. He totally ignores the masses of
evidence that the lower castes revered nadukkals (hero-stones),
ancestors and conducted Amman rituals that were totally alien to vedic
culture!
If this paper was actually accepted at a Vedic workshop, I can only
marvel at how poor standards of scholarship have become amongst
vedicists. A paper this poorly researched would have been laughed out
at any Dravidian session. Vedicists should learn some Dravidian
rationalism!
Ponna
SANSKRIT AND TAMIL DATING
Quiet lot of lies are put across.
I give quotes from Devaneyar- called Pavanar:
"The best of SANSKRIT Grammer book, in Panini of 4th Cen BCE, In Sanskrit grammer books are called Vyakarnam and claims even before Panini there were grammer for Numerals etc., and the oldest was IYenthiram of Vedic Period - Page 56-57, Tamilar Varalaru.
"Iyenthiram Niranthe Tholkappiyar " says Panamparanar;
Thol- 880, Thol1570, Kappiyar refers Ariyam, hence we can conclude that Sanskrit has established considerably in Tholkappiyar' period. Page 40 same book.
Four Vedas or Nanmarai, arangam, agamametc., means Sanskrit works and the word Anthanar in Tholkappiyam and all Tamil Sagnam and later books except refers to Aryan Brahmins only- Page 101, Tamilar Matham.
Devaneyan further in his book Oppiyan Mozhinool says- "s Panamparanar refers him knowing FourVedas, Iyenthiram and Kappiyar differenciates Vadasol Grammer with Tamil and that TholKappiyar made Arangetram before AthangottuAsan, all confirm that Tholkappiyar is A Brahmin."
Tholkappiyar is dubiously dated to 700BCE by Devaneyan, with no reason given, but objective scholoars who look at Tholkappiyar- giving Grammer for Wrting, means advanced stage of North Indian brought Brammi letters i.e., 200-150B.C.E.
I request all to maintain dignity on commenting on Scholars, One is talking so uglyly of UU.VE.SA and other on Iravatham Mahadevan.
The pains taken by Uvesa got us Tholkappiyam and Sangam Literature, which otherwise could have lost, and his honest serch of Originals are fully appreciated. Iravatham Mahadevan was the first to decipher Tamil from BArahmi scripts and has also deciphered Indus-Saraswathi scripts.
Tamil is such a wonderful Language, whose highllights can be said for pages and nobody needs to FaLsely belittle other Indian language and India' equal pride Sanskrit.
Most of the European Universities have intited Closing Tamil Departments and these myths of splitting words only Paint that we are Frauds.
Any Literature dating can be referred from www.wikhipedia.com and that is the opinion of All MAjor Universities of the World, any falsehood spread by few are spreading Hatered meaninglessly.
We do not have a single Tamil Literature before Sanskrit has taken route as I showed.
Please give truths and when you say Your assumed Dates please mention that you assume, when you say cARBON DATED , please gives proper reference, otherwise Wikhipedia is the ideal.
If anybody says my views are wrong give with proofs and not blindly sat wrong or Lie, it looks childish.
MosesMohammedSolomon