In the IR as a singer thread, there has been some interesting debate on Raja's songs suiting situations and how they can / cannot be transposed to other situations. Lets continue the discussion here
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In the IR as a singer thread, there has been some interesting debate on Raja's songs suiting situations and how they can / cannot be transposed to other situations. Lets continue the discussion here
I will start with a couple of examples on how Raja seems to modify things based on situation and lyrics. I am talking about minute changes here and not like how he composes for a situation like sad situation, fun situation etc. Maybe my examples will clarify what I am trying to state.
1. 'Sendhazham Poovil' - There is one charanam wherein the words go, 'valaindhu nelindu sellum padhai' (the road that twists and turns). Now Raja plays a brief shenoy bit here which twists and turns!! We know that Raja generally works out all the music in his mind as soon as the tune comes up but here is a clear case where he must have added this bit after hearing the lyrics of Kannadasan. Similarly you can hear a short shenoy bit in an Uliyin Osai song, 'Kallai irundhen' when the lyricist writes about an impending wedding.
2. An example of how Raja has incorporated some minute details based on the situation. This is from the Kannada film called 'Bhoomi Geethe'. Here in the interlude suddenly the metal part of the drums are hit rapidly. Only when you see the movie you understand why it was done. One lady is trying to cross a stream walking over a branch and is about to fall. The music fits in so very well into the situation. Credit to the director as well. I am sure the music in the interlude was composed by Raja after questioning the director for minute details. Else there would have been no need for that particular small piece in that interlude. Couldn't get the link on youtube :(
Here is one on youtube. Here, in the prelude, there is some clash of cymbals type of music. What Plum in another post had called the 'crashing of a tambalam'. Similar music here. When you see the video you realize that it is indeed a tambalam being banged :) Again, Raja must have got minute details from Sathyan in order to provide that prelude the way he did.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51uV1R_EzRI
I hope you get what I am trying to get at. So if you know of situations where you think Raja had introduced some music based on some lyrics or based on some situation, do share it here.
The Bhoomigeethe song I was referring to was 'Nodirava Nodirava'. You can download it from rajasaranam's MediaFire folder.
Another song whose "portions" will be difficult to port - chinnanjiru vayadhil unnaippOl of meeNdum gOkila - I don't think the 2nd interlude can be ported as such to another movie :-)
OTOH, yEh zindagi got effortlessly ported to en vAzhvilE (Kamal to Rajini, l,s & barrell)
HmmQuote:
Originally Posted by app_engine
Why was poongaatru pudhidhAnAdhu tune not used in Sadma ?
app_engine, too much of a coincidence :)Quote:
Originally Posted by app_engine
I had posted a write up here regarding preludes and it triggered a debate in my office blog. And i used the same example for my point.
Quoting it here,
An example for >> காட்சிப்படுத்துவது>> - I take a Raja song and an old song. The situation in ‘Oru naaL yaaro’ from ‘Major Chandrakanth’ is, a brother and sister fool their neighborhood that the sister is singing live on a radio station. Let’s forget the fact that the situation is totally unrealistic. Check out the second interlude where Nagesh visually translates the music. The interlude gives proper space for that act.
Now, in ‘Chinnanchiru vayathil’ from ‘MeeNdum kokhila’, take the second interlude and its corresponding video. (The set up is a ‘poNNu paakkira’ ceremony. The girl’s mom walks in to the hall, hands over two tumblers of coffee, walks again and hands over two more tumblers) Raja wins hands down, IMHO, for the choice of the instruments. (In the ‘oru naaL yaaro’, I would say the MD has chosen some instruments which really sound like the objects shown in screen. The way Raja used flute to demonstrate her walking, I think, is bloody brilliant). Also, in this particular case, the credit for the Major Chandrakanth song is equally shared by the genius of Nagesh.
I have always been intrigued by one particular song which Raja transposed into a different language with some modifications is 'Pachamala Poovu'. This came to Malayalam as 'Endhu Paranjalum' in Achuvinte Amma. Both of are very sensitive and touching songs. Raja does something, which I can't put my finger on, by which the whole color changes in Malayalam. From a slightly rhythm oriented Tamil love song it changes to a very free flowing and a touching mother-child song in Malayalam. Nothing short of a genius touch.
Good writing Arvind. As a_e said earlier, you should write more and also more often :)
I got so much irritated with BM (and IR) for not using 'poongAtRu' as such for Hindi. That was a big, big career mistake for Raja. Easy example as to how they misread the Bombay market.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram
Fortunately for ARR, he didn't do that blunder with Roja and Hindi film lovers got to hear what kind of innovations Thamizh's are capable of!
a_e,
I think the basic difference is that 'Sadma' was a remade movie while 'Roja' was a dubbed movie. While 'Poonkatru' is a definite classic, do you think it was such a major blunder to include 'Ye Zindagi' instead? I thought people liked that as well. Infact I heard Naresh Iyer tell in one show that it was his all time favorite and he can keep on listening to that song any number of times!!
To be very honest, dubbed movie's music success from South India to Hindi has been very less. Rahman's films have been exceptions. I haven't heard the songs of Hindi 'Mudalvan'. Where the songs the same as in Tamil? Somehow the songs of that film didn't catch fire in Hindi. Neither did the film. But music of films like 'Roja' and 'Kadalan' were great hits up North.
Pressed the Post button soon :) Given that dubbed movie music had not been a great hit, maybe BM and Raja decided to introduce 'Yeh Zindagi' instead since it was a remake and not a dub. As I said, it was not a bad song but whether 'Poonkatru' would have made such a drastic change to Raja's fortune in North, I am not all that sure.
Adding to that Once Ismail Durbar was overwhelmed at a music contest when a participant sung this song and got up applauding saying that this was one of the Best ever creations in Hindi film music.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureshs65
sureshs65, rs :
I don't disagree that yEh zindagi is a good song.
However, it's a much watered down version of the highly innovative 'poongAtRu' in my very strong opinion.
It simply doesn't invoke awe in me like the original!
I dont like to quote anonymous "north indian friends" but here I have to record that a good number of such specimen think that Ae Zindagi is superior to Poongatru. It does seem like conscious customization on IR-BM's part to me.
a_e,
My feeling is that they may have felt that the charanams are very 'south indianish', especially where the tune of the charamam loops back into the pallavi. 'Nee endhan..' part. Maybe that is why they did not want to transpose it to Hindi. Not sure if that is a strong argument though. 'Kuzhaloodum Kannanuku' sound so very typical Tamil song but it did quite well in Hindi as well. Honestly I would not have chosen 'Kuzhaloodum' if someone had asked me which song to remake in Hindi. So there I am, neither here nor there :) Maybe only BM and Raja can tell us why they chose not to use 'Poongatru'. Going by the evidence their change was successful. But what if they had put in 'Poonkatru' instead? Your guess is as good as mine :)
:-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureshs65
சும்மா அங்கலாய்ப்பு தான், it does not make any difference anyway :-)
There may be a lot of "existing grammar" in any field, but the success comes in sounding "entirely different" and at the same time acceptable :-) Means the cliche's should be taken out but underlying grammar maintained...I think yEh zindagi had cliche's...
RAAGAs and the impact it has on emotions. IMO, I have NEVER seen any MD to handle this as effectively as IR :bow:
That is the reason most music touch and kindle temporary moods, few music touch our heart whilst IR's music touch our VERY SOUL. :bow:
'Poongatru' has a discontinous pallavi beginning - 'poongatru' gap, 'pudhidhaanadhu', gap, 'pudhu vaazhvu', gap ' sadhiraadudhu' - also the charanam melody part is way too complex - all these elements wud not have gone well with the N.Indian audiencesQuote:
Originally Posted by app_engine
'yeh zindagi' is more continous! and hence was instantly accepted!
Possibly the same line of thinking led the sadmA team to change it but for an exactly similar style pallavi ('chinna chinna Asai') another team went ahead without change & NI audience whole heartedly accepted that, called it innovative music :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by irir123
Since there was another smooth flowing melody in that film anyways (the lullaby), the team should have gone ahead with the same format. Even for SI audience, hadn't IR introduced so many such new things (mostly with start-up kind of directors / no big banners) to a rousing welcome? machchAnappAththeengaLA -guitar chords (flute in the later part of the song)- malavAzhaththoppukkuLLE -guitar chords...? Then why the bayam when he went to Bombay?
Even before MP was remade into sadmA, there were so many NI fans in our hostel for the originals. It wasn't unusual for boys to play those in hostel entertainment programs etc. Ofcourse kaNNE kalaimAnE was the fav but poongAtRu was loved for its guitar work by many...
a_e,
As I said we can only guess why they changed it. In case of 'Roja' I don't think it was really a conscious decision. The movie was dubbed and hence all song went as they were. In case of a film like 'Alaipayuthe' the decision would have been conscious one since it was remade. The songs became a big hit in Hindi as well.
I would to some extent agree with irir123 on the flow. 'Chinna Chinna Asai' flow is definitely smooth whereas 'Poongatru' goes all over the place, especially in the charanams. As I said, whether that would have made any change to Raja's fortune in Hindi is questionable. I understand your frustration though. I have also seen lot of North Indian guys being very big fans of Raja's Tamil output.
'chinna chinna aasai' has a certain continuity of both rhythm, tempo (with a slight change in the first half of the second interlude) and tune - ' poongatru' does not! IR had already exposed southies to several kinds/levels of sophistication, by the time MP came out - so it wasnt considered unusual - but wud have been considered so in the north!
I think this is a western technique. Funny thing is, I feel, if analyzed IR seems to have used more western techniques, still sounds Indian, than compared, to say, "modern MDs" like Rahman.Quote:
Originally Posted by irir123
It is ignorant to assume N.I. music lovers were not exposed to complex tunes or dumb to appreciate it. There were lot of great MDs in 1960s and 1970s (SDB, RDB, Salilda, Naushad to name the best) weaved lot of complex tunes that were comparable to IR's. It is true Bollywood music hit some lows in the 1980s, when IR was churning out amazing tunes for us.
Why IR was not successful in Hindi... it was different time and different situation. For ARR, lot of things worked in his favour: Mani Ratnam, Shankar's song picturization, Sat TV and image.
Azhagana ratcahsiye was replaced with another tune in hindi. Idhellam hit and miss dhaan.
:yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by genesis
Genesis,
What you say is true to a large extent though I may not agree with all the music directors you have quoted, but that is besides the point. The truth is that the rich legacy of Hindi music, the best in India, hit an all time low in the 80s with lot of dumbed down music. Infact I have heard SPB say that 'Naane Naana' as being done in a North Indian way since it had a free flowing tune. I guess the industry during those time thought that Hindi film music required a certain flow. As Plum remarked, you win some, you lose some :)
Thanks Suresh & a_e :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureshs65
And one song comes to my mind for gap matter is "Eeramana rojavae" song. Even raja has handled the gap in the rthym pattern which is very innovative I believe and kind of 'rasanaiyai thoondum' action.Quote:
Originally Posted by irir123
Even at the risk of sounding condescending/patronizing i strongly agree! Complexities in interludes are often missed up north, IMOQuote:
Originally Posted by irir123
[Rahman is a pleasant exception but i guess there's something else by which he hooks 'em]
the usual <...oh idhula ivvaLO vishayam irukkudhA :bow: >
genesis and others: I didnt mean to be condescending abt the overall musical sensibilities of ppl beyond the VIndhyas
even when SDB or a RDB were complex, their musical complexities did not include jumping totally from one genre to another within a span of a minute in an interlude! thats another part of IR that goes hand in hand with his tune discontinuity - somehow our collective musical taste buds have gotten used to that - for instance, while the pallavi of 'roja ondru muthham ketkum neram' if tweaked a bit cud have easily suited NI tastes, the prelude of the same song as it is wud have sounded 'weirdly' complex for them!
another example from MP is'vaanengum thanga vin meengal' kind of pallavi-anupallavi was understandably changed in tune structure to something totally different - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-jXMmuN5qI - barring the initial flute rendering plus the guitar usage, when Asha Bhosle starts humming 'la la', its composed a la RDB-style, particularly the guitar that accompanies this portion when Asha hums is very reminiscent of the way RDB used the guitar is films like 'Hum kisi se kam naheen' or some of the songs in Kamals 'sanam teri kasam' etc to suit the RDB-induced palate!
IR did not do several Hindi films - had he done that, say around 20-25 in a year, he wud have easily grasped the spirit/needs and gradually infused his own 'genre' and made it acceptable to NI audiences as well!
given that he did very few in Hindi, the popularity of SADMA is quite stunning!
its a matter of someone like Roger Federer or a Sampras getting adjusted to the clay court of the French Open, after having played mostly on the Wimbledon grass courts! or a Sachin, playing more on minefields of pitches to get a feel and then conquer - IR never had a chance to get that 'feel' by doing a series of films in Hindi one after the other!
"Jaane Do Na" - It failed because of its complexity. idha naan yendha court la venaalum adichu solluven!
ஷ்ரேயா ஒரு இந்தி இன்டர்வ்யூல இத சிலாகித்துப்பாடினாங்க, தோல்வின்னு நான் ஒப்புத்துக்க மாட்டேன் :)Quote:
Originally Posted by crajkumar_be
Shreya namma aalu :)
Naan kelvi patta (paditha) varaikkum, Cheeni Kum la matha paadalgalukku kedacha varaverppu "Jaane Do Na" ku kedaikkala. Online reviews, air time etc...
"sara yeh aalam" - Shiva.. idhellam Abishek Bachanukku pidikkalaam.. ethana perukku pidikkum? Check out any song which they even lift from Raaja, they will be dumbed-down versions.
"Neele Neele Ambar", "Rakkamma Kayya Thattu", in fact after listening to "Vaanengum", the Hindi version sounds like blasphemy - Why is IR forced to do this, i wonder! And i agree with irir.
irir123,
What you say is quite true. I am also stunned by the complexity Raja was able to bring into Tamil Film Music field and yet make everyone accept it. That is just amazing. He has definitely made a generation understand these complexities. The music directors who came in after him did reduce the complexity and nowadays you need to ask, "Complexity? What is that and how much does it cost?" :)
I can understand Malayalees taking up Raja's tunes easily because the ground was prepared by people like Dakshinamurthy Swami and later by Raveendran. (The tunes of Sarath nowadays are quite complex too.) Telugu was a different matter altogether, with the very tepid tunes of Chakravarthy ruling the roost and Raja again introduced all the complexity there and at the same time ensured everyone loved his music.
a_e,
Shreya infact starts off by saying she is not going to sing "Chenni Kum Hai" showing that it is the more popular song and people expect her to sing it!!
hi all - here are some interludes of IR which wud have and WILL NEVER work with North Indian audiences, but which were very popular down South!!
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=e...4e75f6e8ebb871
the reason ?? their complexity! even though they were all hip, smooth and very state-of-the-art, they were way too sophisticated and complex for an audience who have never been exposed to such nuances before!
I agree Sharath's tunes are pretty complex.. but I felt "jerky" when listening to few of his songs as if the complexities were forcefully incorporated. I never got that kind of feel with IR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureshs65
Folks..good points on IR's song complexity. Let me share some of my thoughts as well. I think if it is just tunes for the human voice I am sure other MDs whether in north or south (say MSV) would have probably done equal or better than IR. I think where IR differs is, breaking the tune out for the whole orchestra either parallelly (in harmony layers) or sequentially with fills and line endings (brighas ?). irir123 had a good explanation/example of the sequential breaks in the tune for the instruments. Another example I think is en iniya pon nilavE. He has also a good point, given time, IR would have prepared his audience for this.
Please note, IR always thinks "parallel" - in the 3 note composition in Italy he says, "this is how it will sound if I split it for the orchestra" in tamil "pirichchu koduththa".
(BTW, in general I feel malayalee MDs tunes are very strong and free flowing, probable thanks to the raagam based composition approach (and I like a large % of random malayalam songs than in tamil). If some song does not sound good, in my case, it happens to be one of our guys like vidyasaagar).