Tamil's elderliness to world languages

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Hello, Friends And dearest foes!! How are you all I regret for my unavailability and not participating in the debate in "Tamil is elder to Sanskrit thread" for such a long time! I was held up with my project & some access problem one month back in the hub! And When I entered today I found the thread is closed

It is great pleasure to note that Mr.Aravindhan, Mr. Mahadevan & of course Mr. Idiappam and others have made the discussions alive without stagnation! Thanks a lot!

I may give my views after going through all the stuff placed there during my absence, then and there in my future posts.

Sir.Isac Newton found gravitational force. Albert Einsteen proved this force is not applicable to space. Einsteen is not against Newton but substantiated Newtons law with some more evidences. Stephen Hawking substantiated still more the Newtons law.We talk about Tamil's antiquity. Scholars of 1850s & 1930s formulated the base of world history telling originating from Tamil culture. They are substantiated by scholars of 1950s & 2000s with their new findings. The difference in their findings is due to subject matter and not their interpretations and it conforms the same. It is immaterial to reject findings based on time.

Alexander Grahambell found electricity from sky flash. He could not be able to make all the solutions for electricity But Later Thomas Alva Edison made and substantially many scientists contributed for electricity The horizon may vary. But the base of conclusion is same. Yesteryear scholars found some truth. Their horizon has some limitations. But present day scholars have substantiated and touched new horizons.

In both the above two cases there is no contradiction in findings but we find contributions made to each other with some more truths in vivid manner.

At the same time new fresh look into the same findings will give immortal truths The interpretation should not change but deciphering should continue. This is what you call scientific analysis

Quoting scholar's decipherment is to support our views Tarnishing his personality for his shortcomings does not serve anything and this kind treacherers' foolhardiness won't work! Paavanar's shortcomings in word's research have miraculously overcome by Mr.P.Aruli and this does not mean Aruli is contradictory to Pavanar but only means that he is complimentary.

Sankam is pure tamil word.Just pronouncing 'Chankam' as 'sankam' does not make that word as Sanskrit. 'Poosai' = Poo + sai means 'Do with flower'. By turning 'Poosai' into 'Pooja'/Poojai does not mean it is derived from Sanskrit Whereas Sanskrit does not have single meaning/synonym based on this word!One of our friend(Solomon & Ancheneyan are same ) played with Pakuthi/ Vikuthi (from false website) in the same way. I ask him to give some more Sanskrit words with this root which he cannot but in tamil we can.

Kazhakam, Koodal,Avaiyam,Aayam are synonyms for Sankam. The timeline of using this words may be different but they were all used with same meaning. There are lot of "oru porut kilavikal" (synonyms) in tamil. Tamil gave letters to those languages who don't have letters & tamil gave words to those languages who don't have words is the history!

Let us go through the etymology of "Kazhakam" :

Ra-two types, La-three types in tamil is used to distinguish the meaning of words from same roots and fixed during Tholkappiar days. I have already given several examples regarding this.
Illustration : Maram-tree – root 'mara','maraththuppoe' – stand against something
Marram(vallina 'ra')- Veeram-Courage –root 'Mara'- a quality of stand against something. In the both the cases the core/root meaning is same but used for different things of different walks of life.

Readers can find the same type of pattern in Three types of 'La' also. After all pronounciation is natural man made and that is why so many languages in the world were formulated!

"Kazhakam"- root is 'Kala' (small la) which means 'mix'. Kalakkam,kalam, kalambakam,kalakam, kalar,kalavi,kalappai,kalai are some of the words from this root –all contains 'mix' as core meaning. Kal, Kalai have also meanings as mixture of various sands,reading various(mixture) knowledge, mixture of man/things and his emotions/nature and so on.

Kala is consonant starting word. It should have had vowel starting when originated naturally. i.e, 'Ala' only turned as 'Kala'(A,E,Uo suttu olikal are man's first language!)
Alakku,Alaikazhi,Alankaaram,Alanku,Alankolam,Alasu ,Alambal,Alavu,Ali(Mixture of Male & Female) are some of the words with 'Ala' root Which also have 'Mix' as core meaning.

'Kala'(middle la)- Kalam,Porkkalam – Mixing of two armies to fight each other, Nerkalam-Mixing of paddy from various fields, Kalaththiram-Wife- a lady mixing with his husband, Kali-Enjoy with all around & Kalai-a plant mixed with paddy are some of the words of this root having core meaning mixing.

Kazhakam(Big la)-an assembly of intellectuals. Kazhal-silampu- a mixture of pearls/diamonds.Kazhani-Field containing mud(mixture of carbonized plants & mud). Kazhi-a mixture of wastes.

For Tamil pandits it is customary that if they don't find some words in literary works they reject them as foreign words.They comfortably forget colloquial roots 'Chaappiduthal'(eating) & 'Sirippu'(laughing),Vidayam(Vishayam)have never been used in sankam anthology/any other literary works. Is it correct to reject them as foreign words? There are lot of words which have never been used in literary works. Hence it is illogical to conclude words etymology based on literary works

All world languages formulated their own words from the available roots of oldest language and it is conformly tamil since the earliest inscriptions of world only found in tamil and the earliest organized language is tamil. The roots of any word of any language can be hopefully explained by tamil!

I show one example. Malayalam never existed before 1000 years. It is a tamil dialect.When Portukeese came Kerala before 400 years they brought Tea seeds. Malayalees invented new word 'Chayam' representing the coloured substance.The same is Chaaya in north India. Here the root is tamil 'Chai' & Chai,Chayal, Chayai(Shade) are some of the words from this root representing 'replica'. Colour is also a replica of someshade in nature.

'Vedham' has root 'Vei' / Vae(nedil) means 'hide'. When there is no hidden thing due to light it is called 'Vei+el' –Veyyil, no hide-Sunlight. Vei (Otran-spy who hides and act), Veithal /Veivu–Hide (Koorai veithal), Veyul-Porvai(a blanket used while sleeping)are some of the words from this root. Sanskrit does not have single parallel words from this root! 'Vetha Viyasar' is a 'dravidian' as per fifth Vedham( message by 14 th century CE-Sri Villiputthoorar Bharatham) "Mahabarath"s terminology and he organized vedhas during 100-150 CE(AD) keeping in his mind about tamil's organized structure.

Hence instead of picking out Vedhic presence in Tamil, Vedhic protagonists should pick tamil elements in four Vedhas, 18 Puranas, two Ithikaasas & Akamaas! Without tamil's influence there is no Rig Vedha. Other three Vedhas contain original Vedhic Tradition except Rig Vedha which contains only tamil culture. This is not my view. I have already specified this in this thread quoting various scholars There are 6 types of religions in India (Thiruvasakam). Vedhic tradition is one of them strenghthened by tamil Siva & Vinnava worship during 3rd & 4th century CE and during 7th & 8th century CE it attained its peak by Guptas dynasty (Thevanakari script also was invented by 8th Century CE)entered into tamil land during 6th century CE & got deterioration during Muslim invasion. In fact Tamil protected Vedhic traditions during Muslim rule.

Hindu- the word never exist anywhere in the above Vedhic traditions! Manikavasakar coined that word and after several centuries passed, during 9th & 10th century it went to Kashmir.

I quote from the book " The siva sutra-Vimarsini of Ksemaraja- translated into English by P.T. Srinivasa Iyengar, p-7.

From during the later period of 8th century ACE(period of VasuGupta who wrote comments for siva sutra) to 11th century ACE(period of abanava Gupta and Shamaraja- followers of VasuGupta) siva/Inthu religion called "Praththiya Pinknai"prevailed in Kashmir.

The same religion is called "elaku veesa paasu patham"in Koorchara kingdom.(ibid p.19) From then onwards "Hindu" the word has been used.

I could not avoid speaking about religions by virtue of it significance in Sanskrit history.


f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Friends

As Mr. Aravindhan said in his message that Languages structural form plays major role in grouping languages.Hindi is basically a tamilian language and you can fill up simply tamil sentences into Hindi sentence

Nearly 75% of Words of hindi are shrinked form of tamil. Day today usage words like tikae,Bole,sellana & patna are tamil Thakum(sari),palukku,sellu,pati respectively.

As I have already told, tamil culture spread from south to north,south to north west,south to east and south to north east.

Earlier I told about Japanese connection and Japanese language still has no similarity of single world language except tamil. Now I want to show that African & South Asian connections of tamil culture.

Lets us see What Mr.Hamori an African linguistic and historien says :

Chief characteristic of Tamil, the main Dravidian dialect.
1. agglutinative in structure like Ural Altaic
2. relational and non relational nouns
3. every pronoun case has a pronominal suffix/prefix like Ural-Altaic
4. the first syllable receives the accent, like Uralic.
5. first person plural has inclusive and exclusive forms.
6. there are only two numbers plural & singular. like Ural-Altaic
7. no gender in pronouns like Ural-Altaic.
8. No relative pronoun <?>
9. There are 8 case endings in nouns and post positions.

So far the most ambitious, the most promising, and most convincing theory is that of Uralian and Altaic relationship with Tamil. Not only linguistic but anthropological, ethnographic, archeological and general historic considerations points towards this direction. This theory under the term "Scythian" was first proposed by Caldwell in 1856, and more serious attempts to support it and to develop it further were made by F.O. Schroder, T. Burrow, and K.Menges. Complete lexical evidences, plus the Keltiminar Culture (next to Aral Sea) of Khorezm points to the same important contacts between the "Ural-Altaian"and Tamil people.
There are also comparisons of Tamil with ancient Elamite of ancient Eastern Messopotamia and Iran, which also have been often linked to Uralic and Altaic. This indicates a north-south chain of similar agglutinative, genderless languages from northern Europe to India. Even the Russian Tolstov,in his excavations of Khorezmia mentioned the many north-south and eastern links with this Tamil ancient culture.


Let us see what Dr.Willeke Wendrich, Assistant Professor of Near Eastern Languages and Cultures tells about tamil culture :
We just finished the eighth excavation season at Berenike, a harbor town on the Red Sea coast founded in the third century BCE and abandoned in the sixth century ACE It is a settlement through which an important part of the trade between the Roman Empire and the Far East passed. Most of our evidence for long distance trade comes from botanical analysis, but we also have important results from the analysis of beads, textiles, and pottery. Textual evidence for long-distance contacts is one Tamil-Brahmi graffito and a bilingual Greek-Palmyrene inscription.

Similarly, Chinese historical sources which refer to the maritime traders bringing typical South Indian products to China as far back as 7th Century B.C.E, 'were generally regarded with incredulity.' These accounts have now received striking confirmation by the discovery in the Philippines of a number of Iron age finds bearing close resemblance to objects found in South India of about the same period - the first millennium(1000) B.C.

(According to Paul Palliot there is evidence in Chinese literature of diplomatic relations between South Indian Courts and the Chinese Empire as early as the 2nd Century B.C.E. A Chinese writer, Pau Kou who lived at the end of the 1st century, mentions that in the time of the Hun Emperor the Chola Kings sent ambassadors to China. - K. M. Pannikar "India and China", pp. 17, 18. )

"Professor Beyer conducted a remarkable series of excavations during the years 1926 to 1930, and the evidence has been summed up by R.B.Dixon, who did a first-hand examination of the objects brought to light by Prof. Beyer. Among the finds were a large variety of iron weapons and implements and glass beads and bangles made in the Tamil country." (K.A.N.Sastri).

I shall quote what Dixon has to say of these:
"Now both the iron and glass objects are similar to, and in some cases identical with, the prehistoric glass and iron finds in the South of India. They occur in the dolmen tombs and urns which are found by hundreds and thousands, and which almost antedate the historic Chola, Chera, Pandyan kingdoms whose history goes several centuries back before Christian era. As finds of similar glass bead. and bangles have recently been excavated in the Malay Peninsula, in dolmen tombs in Java and in North Borneo, the inference is inescapable that we have clear evidence of trade contact with the Northern Philippines and Southern India, running well back into the first millennium(1000) B.C.E.

"The extensive trade and colonisation and later conquests of South Indian kingdoms in Sumatra and Java as well as in Indo-China in the early centuries of the Christian era, of course, are well known. This new material, however, seems to make it clear that this was far from being the beginning of such contacts, but rather the last stages in an association reaching as far as the Northern Philippines which had begun many centuries before."

About Adichanallur

At Adichanallur, an ancient site on the banks of the Tambraparani in the Tinnevely district, extensive prehistoric urn burials and iron implements related to those found in the Philippines and Palestine have been unearthed. A remarkable find was the three-pronged fork or trident of iron. Many such tridents were discovered at Adichanallur. This evidence suggests that the worship of Murugan or Velan, the son of Siva (known as the God of Kataragama in Ceylon), was popular in the Tamil country even in those remote times. This Muruga worship would appear to have been carried by the Tamils to Palestine and Syria in the West, to Ceylon in the South, and to the distant Philippines across the Indian and Pacific Oceans.

In 1200 B.C at Adichanallur, the Tamils were found to have cultivated rice, and it was in this region that the iron industry had its origin. There is every evidence to prove that the Tamils were the earliest people to introduce the cultivation of rice and the use of iron implements to the countries in the West as well as in South East Asia.

In support of this contention I would quote two distinguished authorities -

Piggott in his "Prehistoric India., page 43 (Pelican Books, 1952), says with regard to rice,

"It seems probable that rice cultivation began earlier in India than it did in China and that the knowledge reached the latter country about 2000 B.C.".

With regard to the centre of origin of iron, I give an extract from the Bulletin of the British Iron and Steel Federation,1949. Sir William Larke, Director of the British Iron and Steel Federation, says -

"The centre of origin is variously placed in India, where there are historical traditions and remains indicating a highly developed iron culture. Hyderabad and Trichinopoly are considered by many to have been the centres of production of wootz..... This steel was noted for centuries, being carried by merchants from India to Damascus and Toledo.."

It will be noted that both these sites are in South India (Deccan). Sir William gives the date of this origin of the iron age as 1400 to 1500 B.C.E The iron implements found in the Adichanallur site about the same period, and the transport of iron hoes and tridents to distant countries such as Palestine and the Philippines confirms this conclusion.

For the purpose of studying the influence of Indian Art and Culture in the countries of South-East Asia, Quaritch Wales in his recent work, "The Making of Great India", divides South-East Asian countries into two zones - the Western Zone and the Eastern Zone.

Under the Western Zone he includes Ceylon, Burma, Central Siam, Malaya and Sumatra; while he includes Java, Champa (Siam) and Cambodia in the Eastern Zone.

REGARDING VEDHIC PROTAGONISTS:

The author (Quaritch Wales} points out that Indian scholars - most of them North Indians and a few Aryanised Brahmins of South India - seem often to have tended to over emphasise the overseas influence of their own part of the country - the implication being that they have exaggerated the role played by North Indian and Aryan culture in South-East Asia. He, however, accepts unhesitatingly the conclusion arrived at by M. Coedes, another great authority on South-East Asian Culture that -

"All the regions of India contributed more or less to this expansion, and it is South India that had the greatest part, for the Southern half of the Greater India - consisting of Ceylon, Java. Sumatra. Borneo, Malaya and Bali - was naturally most exposed to South Indian influence."

More recently, M. Stern has shown that even in Champa (Siam) and Cambodia which are included in the Eastern Zones by Quaritch Wales, Pallava (Tamil) influences have played a significant part from very early times in the evolution of their culture.

f.s.gandhi

[Badri]

To all participants of this thread: The earlier thread had been closed as it violated every stated guideline of this Forum. I hope this thread will not meet a similar fate. Kindly keep out all discussions which call for a comparison between languages or cultures.

If you do not agree to the views of other people, kindly make an intellectual arguement if the same is within your means. If not, kindly refrain from making any comments that would injure the sentiments of other people.

[mahadevan]

Hi Badri you said 'Kindly keep out all discussions which call for a comparison between languages or cultures'.

If the title is 'Tamil's elderliness to world languages' how can we refrain from comparing Tamil with other languages ?.

I completely understand that some times it gets nasty and we do need a semblence of decorum. But please do not say that comparing languages is completely banned

[Badri]

Well Mahadevan, what it essentially means then is that there is no need for such a thread that seeks to compare. If Tamizh is great, it is great by its own right. It doesn't have to be proven great by comparing it with other languages. If one can feel proud of a language only by proving it is the greatest, the best, the oldest, that is like saying I am proud of my mother only if she is the most beautiful woman in the whole world!

This is not a Tamizh Forum. This is a forum frequented by people of all languages and cultures. Willy nilly, any comparison is bound to hurt the sentiments of other people.

Therefore, fortunately or unfortunately, such comparisons are completely banned.

[NOV]

Real pride is when a non-Tamil acknowledges the greatness of the language. Mere maar-thattudhal doesnt take you any where.

In fact, this constant obsession on Tamil being the best, oldest, etc will create an opposite effect among non-Tamils.

All I can say is, please dont destroy the good name of Tamil in your earnestness to flaunt its greatness.

[Idiappam]

There many ways to skin! That's his way. Mine is different!

[mahadevan]

Vinaythogai (for past, present and future tence), Is it some thing unique to Tamil ?

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Moderators

I assure you that unwanted boasting shall be avoided in this thread. We shall discuss about world history and its origin based on scholars presentation.

I put the topic name in such a way to make every hubber participating in the discussion with enthusiasm.

Hubbers of different opinions may ask for more explanations with friendly way and if they still not satisfied they can politely express their disapproval.

This is not propogation against any language. I want to portray some truths.

By the by, Mr. Mahadevan, 'Vinaithokai' is unique feature in tamil poetry. Not only that. "Anikal" & Yappu are also special feature in tamil.

Some of the poetrical pattern of tamil has been adapted later period in sanskrit. For example, 'Pirathi Petham' in sanskrit was adapted from tamil 'padiyakuthal'. It means Some poetries pattern shall be repeated with same set of words to give various meaning.

In tamil, Thirumoolar Thirumanthiram contains this pattern. In Sanskrit Pathanchali Munivar followed this pattern in 'Ayur Vedham'

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

TAMIL CULTURE IN ANCIENT SAUDI ARABIA

Those historiens and researchers who did research in West Asian countries calls a country as "SEA LAND". Babyloniens(3000 BC), Asirians(1500 BC) & Persians(1000 BC) ruled this country. Egyptians called this country as "GOD LAND".

Dr. Raymond Philip Dougherty is one of the historiens did research on "SEA LAND" which is nothing but present Saudi Arabia situated west of Persian Gulf.

Mr. Raymond did his research to pick up more evidences for Greek civilizations but ended up with Dravidian/Tamil culture . We know always that this sort of conclusion shall be the result obtained by many scholars about tamilian civilization . Actually they don't carry out their research with tamil as base. But accidentally they find out tamil base eventually

Tamils "PORUNAI VALLEY CIVILIZATION" invented Madpaandam(Mud urns),Chakkaram(Wheel for traveling and Urn making) & Marakkalam(Ship for Sea travel & trade). Any ancient society research should accompany tamil as base otherwise they shall be "blind in big forest"-making no fruitful conclusion.

An another historien Sir.Arthur Geeth says : North Arabians are Chemiththian & Cacasians mixture.South Arabians are Half cacasians & half Dravidians.

An abstract from Mr. Raymond book, "THE SEALAND OF ANCIENT ARABIA", New Haven, Yale University.

"During 3500 BC Saudi Arabia land was under sea. Slowly it came out. That is why it was called as sea land.During 3000 BC "Kaltheya"( in Asirian language- Old Arabic-means country of stones- in tamil 'Kaltheyam') & Elam(means sun- tamil 'ellam'-suriyan). This sealand's East border is 'Thilmun'(present Bahrain- means 'Top point'-tamil 'thilmunai'). Kasayas-a segment of Kaltheya people- called this land as "karthuniyash"(means a land shore that came out- tamil 'karai thunithal'-karai uyarnthu Ezhuthal). Sea land's East border is Egypt(Gulf of 'Suyaz').

A district called "pant"(Tamil pandyar) was there as main trade centre. Foreigners/Dravidians were main traders. Precious stones,Gold,Silver,Sandal trees,Teak woods,perfumes were imported. Special teak wood specifies it came from present Kerala(Old pandyan kingdom). Mr. Ferrosias(historien) says Eden Garden of Bible was there in 'Thilmun'(Thilmunai-present Bahrain). The archeology proves this.

"Eridu"(means red- Tamil Eri means Reddish) was the city-head quarters for Sea Land. land. The first king name is 'Alulin'(means Alaza-wave in Arabic-tamil 'Alaiyan' like 'Thirayan').

A book called "JUPILIS" informs Persian Gulf as 'Erithiri'(means red sea-In Greek also Red Sea- tamil Eri thirai –Eri-red,thirai-Sea)

Bible Abraham's(Tamil Aayar kone) Birth place was "Oor" (Tamil Oor) in kaltheya.

Present Red Sea was not there during 3500 BC When southern part of Arabia was under Sea. It was as Gulf of Erithiri. When Arabia came out during 3000 BC present Red Sea was formulated. This is recorded as story in Old Testament -Bible. When land is created by God's grace 'Isralieans" escaped from Egypt through this land is story. Story might be imaginative. But the essence is archeologically proved. Exactly during this time the first "KADAL KOL"(Sea disaster) happened in Kumari kandam.

Half fish-Half man-ONUS Story prevailed in Gulf countries and Sumeria. A man from sea Spread culture & arts and gave language to these countries is the story. This conforms a sea man (tamils were sea farrers) shall be Dravidian/tamils.The pandyas have 'Meen'-fish as symbol. (H.R.Hall –a sinthu valley expert & V.R.Ramachandra Deekshidar-historien also conforms this- he says in these story two direct tamil words are found. One is 'Neer': another one is 'Meen': Remained were shrinked form of tamil)

During 1800 BC Sea land was under control of "Cemiththian"(means reddish people-tamil Chem/Chev means reddish). Arabia- name came from 'Aram'(means Reddish- tamil aram,araththam means red). Cuniform(Wedge shaped) (in tamil Kooni/Koompu/Aappu structure) Inscriptions showed king's entire dynasty and all are found to be Dravidian origin/tamil.

A foreign god(Dravidian) called 'Eya/Eyakki'(tamil eyakki amman/esakki amman) was worshipped.Horses were called as 'Purimo'(tamil parima)"

From this we come to know that first seeds of civilization were spread by tamils in Gulf countries.That is why Frederick Engeles called 'Kumari kandam'(elamuria) as "CRADLE OF WORLD CIVILIZATIONS"

We shall see more.

f.s.gandhi