Fake (or real!!) Godmen and Messiahs:

[r_kk]

Even after long years or Periyar’s struggle, still Tamil Nadu remains as the hunting ground for many godmen/messiahs. They are in different form, come from various places (local and foreign), saffron wearing local Godmen or Coat wearing messiahs… Both adopt the same and very similar techniques… They bring a live and interactive God concept more responsive to day to day problems… they say either they had seen God or God is working through them… They say indirectly this is the only way… You can identify them easily by the luxurious way they and their family live, the way the project their generation as next messiahs, the religious business empire they run… They also spent part of their gained wealth as social work (!!!) in order to cover up the crookedness…. They look very kind and nice and no one feel like questioning… Even though Premanda, Sathurvedi and Sai Baba are partly exposed, there are still so many in all religions to cheat the ignorant and so called educated masses… They thread you if you raise any question and tell you that you are nothing in front of them and your knowledge is so poor to understand them… Most of them has large number of dedicated brain washed followers… Most of them do miracle cure and tell they are receiving the words from GOD… I kindly request both believers and non-believers to write here about the fake Godman and preachers, very logically from the available proofs in a rational approach instead of making abusive statements…

Let us start with a local messiah… Pankaru Adigalar…. Even though this issue has been discussed in the forum under another thread,
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The following are taken from one of his propaganda web site…
http://www.sakthipeedam.org/avathar.html

“he used to go to his sister's grave. One day when he was sitting on the grave he felt very thirsty - it is at that time Annai Adhiparasakthi in the form of Uma Maheswari gave the little boy Ganges water, which she produced from her knotted hair and blessed Him with this divine water. By this Annai Adhiparasakthi wanted the world to feel and realise Her incarnation in the form of young Bangaru”

“Above all Adigalar is the incarnation of Annai Adhiparasakthi”

"Yes! Adigalar is the personification of Ambal"

AMMA once in Her oracle said,
" Do not try to analyse me and my ways. They are beyond your intellectual power".

“AMMA is the only solution to all our problems”

" I have taken the incarnation as Adigalar. The body belongs to Adigalar but the soul is mine. I will be HIM and HE will be MYSELF"

From other web site
The basic tenet of Melmaruvathur Adhiparasakthi Siddhar Peetam is "One Mother, One Humanity", means the whole human race is one and all the human beings who inhibit this vast earth are children of Mother Goddess and therefore there is no distinction amongst the human beings on any basis, be it religion, race, creed, community, caste or even gender.

Hearing the Goddess Adhiparasakthi's oracle is a great spiritual experience, this miracle takes place at Siddhar peetam.

See the Chalras by so called educated people….
http://www.omsakthi.org/writings/avatar1.html

In contrast, read the following which has been taken from old thread…
http://forumhub.lunarpages.com/expr/16966.07.18.23.html

“I studied in adhiparasakthi college of engineering and I know ver well about Bangagru adigal. He is a low time crook who used to be a poor school teacher turned up to be a god man over the past few years. He has many shady businesess and many evil activiite. Like Sai Baba he concels everything by throwing a few peanuts of his earnings in charity. I just wonder when people will become rational.God save the innocent who fall in to these so called "God Man".
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There was a big article in Tamil magazine in 1986~87 regarding his one of the illicit act in which he tries to use his magical power to make “vasyam” and the report from witness… Any one knows about that one?

If he is good, then please explain his merits too...

[hehehewalrus]

r_kk,
i am the first to vote and i voted that we should expose the frauds.
but you have produced only one proof against Bangaru Adigal and what is the certainty that he is genuine? He might be a non-hindu after all...

[Shekhar]

Fake Godmen... Are there any other type?

[r_kk]

Then about one of the famous Preacher of Tamil Nadu: Broth. D G S Dhinagaran

I had taken the following from the old thread:
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http://forumhub.com/tnhistory/14692.12.05.55.html

Dinakaran claimed in one meeting that Jesus came to him in his bedroom and gave the blue print of kaunya Institute of Technology at Coimbatore ( there the students protested last year opposing the forced conversions and the financial irregularities). In Dinakaran's family itself his wife has become a mass hypnotizing specialist. She claims that Jesus has bestowed her with seven boons (to cure etc).

Paul Dinakaran, son of DGS Dinakaran has also mastered this art nowadays and has roped in his wife Stella and two kids into this 'family business'. Now copying Dinakaran's Style, in every locality there is a protestant preacher who does this kind of 'suvisesha vizhakkal'.

I am not against someone preaching the good teachings of Jesus Christ .But the society has to at least made aware that this is going on .Since mostly the lower strata Tamils are only falling prey to this menace, the elite sections which control media , politics etc are ignoring this epidemic which is fast spreading in Tamilnadu!--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following statement says that he had met Jesus in Physical form.
http://quicksitemaker.com/members/jehovahraphe/DGS.html

He sought God earnestly for 7 years and on October 10, 1962 the Lord Jesus appeared to him personally and spoke to him for three hours. The Lord showed Dr. Dhinakaran how He had recorded everyone of his prayers and that because he had sought Him diligently, He had come personally to bless him. The Lord also told Dr. Dhinakaran that he was His chosen vessel to carry His love and compassion to the broken-hearted people all over the world. His mission was to console millions around the world, and to prove that God cared for them through his message, songs, and prayers.

For me the above he looks more similar to Pangaru Adigalar except the name of the God they were using. Is it correct?

Can any one answer to these questions?
1. Did he say that he met Jesus two times in physical form? (I also read some where in one of his publication). Most of the preachers say like this (the famous Paul Yongi Cho also told that he meet Jesus in the uniform of Fire fighting man.) How far this is reliable? Is it theologically necessary for God to appear in physical form?
2. His movement members say he prays and does fasting on the requests comes from many people? What is the probability of success he has? All are answered or he projects only the few positives (and blame the others as insufficient faith or just ignoring)? Is there any report mentioning his success rate?
3. Does he maintain a very simple life or wealthy life? How much is his present wealth compared to his earlier days? Does he run any business empire other than religious services?
4. Is there any body other than his family leading the topmost positions of his evangelical movement? From the websites I had seen, most of them are led by his family members. Why God bless as family? I have not seen such generation by generation blessed families in other religions!!!
5. Do any one know about his extend of interaction with his predecessor Paul Seer Lauri of Seran Maga Devi (or Tenkasi) or his previous evangelical movement pioneers in Tamil Nadu?
6. Who are the other Foreign Preachers (Benny Hinn is one) associate with his movement and how far they are reliable?
7. If he can do miracle cure, why we need Adayar cancer Institute in Madras where he lives? Is it possible to prove he can cure all or at least more than scientifically acceptable spontaneous remission rate of all cancers (1 in 10,000 and 1 in 100,000 means if you pray on any name (or even don’t pray) for 10,000 cancer patient, then there is a possibility for 1 get sudden cure)? Are these cured people were proven as the only effect of miracle or they were side by side taking conventional treatment (coincidental effect)? Did he ever go to hospital for his own health problem?
8.Are these miracle cure comes under “placebo effect” or “psychogenic in nature (pain, nausea, vomiting, stuttering, stress, partial paralysis)”? Is there any one proved with regeneration of lost body part, for example totally new hand or vision to the completely blind eye at Birth or appearance of new eye?

Please note that this thread is aimed to understand preachers and Godmen from various perspectives. So please avoid any personal hatred or abusive statements.

[hehehewalrus]

r_kk,
while I certainly appreciate your intent, I am dismayed that you do absolutely ZERO ANALYSIS( I repeat, ZERO ANALYSIS) on the SOURCE of your reports!

You have conveniently ignored my question to you in the second post when I asked about the veracity of the sources.

I have researched in details the case studies produced by you and I really doubt if you have done atleast 5% of the investigations I have done for OVER A DECADE - since all I see you doing is picking some link on the net and posting it. I havent seen a single case where you used non-internet data based on your interaction with the sources concerned. Which suggests to me you may not be serious about an objective evaluation.( I long suspected this when you used a porn site as backup and the other occasion when you dismissed off an MIT Ph.D's findings in less than 30 minutes!)

The internet is a forum for free expression and I will not stop you. All I wish to say is that you are more and more resembling another Ramar Pillai - dubious sources for your claims!

Anyway I have no animosity - I am not keen in burning my fingers for hours on the internet just to disprove one person, you are free to assume whatever you like

[hehehewalrus]

Let me know dissect some easy-to-spot inaccuracies in r_kk's sources and show how reliable they are!

Dinakaran claimed in one meeting that Jesus came to him in his bedroom and gave the blue print of kaunya Institute of Technology at Coimbatore

I dont support starting any engineering college but what if it were true? how many single income middle class families start an engineering college? How come you have kept silent in the "Unexpected" thread where you were unable to explain some of the incidents mentioned by posters about the visions/dreams they had?

there the students protested last year opposing the forced conversions

The incident you quoted happened on September 9 1996. The college was closed down for about two to three months. Now I have several neighbors and friends studying in that college. I know the regionwise distribution of the students there(percentagewise how many telugus, tamils, malayalees,mizo, north indians there).

Now after the college reopened an ad was placed in the Hindu mentioning the list of students barred for damaging college property. What was funny is that over 80% of the student names were Malayalee christians(I have lived all over india and comfortable with multiple cultures/langs, I have friends in pretty much every college in the state in the late 90s - I know all about the student activities in the hostels and any mature person would say that in cases of student-management conflicts, generally 70% of the time students are responsible. We are talking about a private engg college, not IIT)

She claims that Jesus has bestowed her with seven boons (to cure etc).

Very funny Seven boons? When did Jesus become a Hindu God?

Paul Dinakaran, son of DGS Dinakaran has also mastered this art nowadays and has roped in his wife Stella and two kids into this 'family business'.

You should be recruited by the FBI dude. Paul Dinakaran's wife's name is not Stella!!! And his 2 kids were aged 7 and 5 when that article was published. These kids should enter the Guinness book for being hypnotists at ages 7 and 5

So this pretty much sums up the quality of sources r_kk produces.

Since mostly the lower strata Tamils are only falling prey to this menace

Very funny. Have you visited www.sankaranarayanan.org? And what do you mean by lower strata? Most of the SC/ST are strongly opposed to the christian religion since they will lose their reservation benefits, do you know that?


Note: It is not wrong for ANYONE to WISH to do a Ph.D thesis.
But there are certain conditions for that.
1) The basic foundations you use for your study should be reliable.
2) The findings you get at the end of your research should have consistency, have credibility and should be repeatable using various methods.
3) The outcome you get combining Step 1 and Step 2 should be verifiable, logical and repeatable(There shouldnt be even 1% of assumption)

If you fail in any of the above 3 steps, your THESIS is NOT acceptable. Desire alone does not make a Ph.D.

[mellon]

Fake Godmen... Are there any other type?

That is hilarious, Shekhar!

BTW, that adjective needs to be erased. The word "Godmen" speaks for itself- how "original" it could ever be

[hehehewalrus]

Just a question r_kk. When you investigate some phenomenon or group, how many of their members do you talk to? I assume you might be based in Chennai/Blr or the software belt of india(since I cant see your IP address in this forum)

If you can really produce good sources and are serious about your motives, I can have RELIABLE PEOPLE contact you to clear your doubts. But so far neither your sources or methods have convinced me to take that much trouble or give trouble to others. It shouldnt be a repetition of Anna University/IIT profs meeting Ramar Pillai.

Since I am on vacation and have idle time I will take a shot

1. Did he say that he met Jesus two times in physical form? (I also read some where in one of his publication).

Yes he said. And I dont know where you got that "two" times, he said many times. BTW, do you have the name of the publication?(coz researchers should be specific in what they quote, otherwise they are merely verandah critics)

How far this is reliable? Is it theologically necessary for God to appear in physical form?

I dont know where this question will lead and where it will end. A long discussion on this is progressing in the "Does God exist?" thread.

2. His movement members say he prays and does fasting on the requests comes from many people? What is the probability of success he has? All are answered or he projects only the few positives (and blame the others as insufficient faith or just ignoring)? Is there any report mentioning his success rate?

Firstly, I dont think any person in the world keeps a monthly statistical count of "prayers prayed" and "prayers answered". Secondly, not a single person in the world(whatever be the religion) believes that ALL prayers are meant to be answered. Everyone has unanswered prayer.

3. Does he maintain a very simple life or wealthy life? How much is his present wealth compared to his earlier days? Does he run any business empire other than religious services?

That neither you nor me can tell. Only an employee of his group can tell the TRUTH. But if you are looking for guesses and assumptions rather than verified TRUTH, feel free to make one.

4. Is there any body other than his family leading the topmost positions of his evangelical movement? Why God bless as family?

Explain what is meant by top position. What is the activity you are talking about? From what I found in his site, it tells that different people of his group preach in different places.

From the websites I had seen, most of them are led by his family members.

He has just one son and a very small family. How do you who is a family member and who is not? And whats meant by "most of them"?

5. Do any one know about his extend of interaction with his predecessor Paul Seer Lauri of Seran Maga Devi (or Tenkasi) or his previous evangelical movement pioneers in Tamil Nadu?

Who is this paulseer lauri? I have never heard of him. Some days back you spelt the same guy as "paulseer Lawrie"! I am not getting him on google

6. Who are the other Foreign Preachers (Benny Hinn is one) associate with his movement and how far they are reliable?

He has 100s of friends and BH is just one of them. What do you want to know about BH? I have elaborately discussed BH in another yahoogroup a year back, after studying him from 2000-2003. Study BH and mail me your specific questions so we can get directly to the point.

7. If he can do miracle cure, why we need Adayar cancer Institute in Madras where he lives?

Why, is he the same person who started Adayar cancer institute? Are you saying just because someone believes in God, he should demolish all hospitals in his country? I dont understand the connection between him and ACI.
Is it wrong for those who believe in God to study MBBS?

Is it possible to prove he can cure all or at least more than scientifically acceptable spontaneous remission rate of all cancers (1 in 10,000 and 1 in 100,000 means if you pray on any name (or even don’t pray) for 10,000 cancer patient, then there is a possibility for 1 get sudden cure)?

Terribly wrong assumptions.
Firstly show me one person who claims "he"(not "He") will cure ALL diseases.
Secondly, everyone who advertises divine healing says that it wont work sometimes. Unanswered prayers exist.

Did he ever go to hospital for his own health problem?

Many times. 1969, Jan 1990, May 1994 to name a few.

8.Are these miracle cure comes under “placebo effect” or “psychogenic in nature (pain, nausea, vomiting, stuttering, stress, partial paralysis)”?

This can be best answered by forensic scientists, ENT specialists and dieticians. I dont see how I can give a convincing answer to this.

Is there any one proved with regeneration of lost body part, for example totally new hand or vision to the completely blind eye at Birth or appearance of new eye?

For this you need to goto his meetings or talk to the people who claim these. Have you taken any steps in this direction?

Please note that this thread is aimed to understand preachers and Godmen from various perspectives. So please avoid any personal hatred or abusive statements.

Yes but remember it is always wiser to take pains in the real world, research these things and talk to people. Otherwise we will spend few more years debating this based on assumptions. There are several threads like this in old forumhub started in 1997 and still running.

Apologies if I made any harsh or wrong statements anywhere. You know my email and can contact me if more queries.

[r_kk]

Dear He3

r_kk,
You have conveniently ignored my question to you in the second post when I asked about the veracity of the sources.

I long suspected this when you used a porn site as backup and the other occasion when you dismissed off an MIT Ph.D's findings in less than 30 minutes!

All I wish to say is that you are more and more resembling another Ramar Pillai - dubious sources for your claims!

What a comparison... Ramar Pillai. He was expecting money&fame motive and intendion to cheat... (I was strongly telling him as a lier who says something against the proven science). You are comparing a fake with person who tries to expose fake... What I do in this thread is asking the questions against something which is beyond the conventional science.... Then regarding the wrong link, I had given detail explantions already... I had given the correct link also later....

Then regarding the inconsistency in details about DGS , his family, his college issues are from the old thread (I had mentioned also). Not my own. Thanks for explanations. I will try to get more details and provide reply...

You had aslo posted about Sai Baba... Is it based on your own research? No... Can you distingusih between your intention and mine?

Who ever says they had seen God in physical form and God asked them to do this and that are fake as per my opinion. Any kind of miracle cure which beyond the law of nature is suspecious. I comapre it with the basic science I had studied... Thats why I am asking the questions....

As you said, I haven't done any major practical reserch but read lot of resiurces from the people (like Randi, Abragam Govoor, Indain Skeptic Association) who had really worked and exposed many of the foreign miracle healers. I will try to use the valid resources from now... OK? ... I have been working on very constructive upliftment program for lower segment of our society (non religious, or caste based) and was considering that working on these fake Godman as waste of time. Due to my official (to earn my bread) finding time to devote to the real constructive works itself becoming very difficult thing for me. So at this moment I couldn't spent time on the activities you had mentioned. But I feel this cheating business is rampent and it should be tackled. This is my basic and only intention. Surely I will do detail research in this line very soon and write more in detail based on my own experience...

Then about the MIT prof, you had been mentioining, I said one simple thing... Why he is not accepting the challange already kept beofre him. It doesn't require more than 30min.

Then regarding your statement regarding "my very conceptual problem" related to Jesus and Islam, you haven't given any answer yet.... but you are also changing the subjects boss.

I appreciate you for the methods to verify and reliability and consistancy of data to be used... Thanks... I will try to adopt this in my future postings....


Regarding other points, I will try to give a detail reply to you soon...

[r_kk]

Dear Walrus,
I am writing from my vague memory based on the article in Tamil magazine Tarasu around 1986~87 written by Mervin (a christian broad minded writter who writes self esteem essays). I don't know whether he is alive or not.

Paulaseer Lawrie is one of the pioneers in Tamil Nadu starting the miracle cure business. He was initially a Christian preacher who was very successful till he announced that Jesus will come from heaven on such and such data at a particular place (tenkasi or Seran maga devi). When people gathered, he jumped out from the tree and announce himself as Jesus second coming. People didn’t accept him afterwards. So he changed his business location to Sri lanka and start using his ancestral Hindu name as Muthu Krishna and staring posing as Preacher belongs to multiple religions. He came back to India after some time and silently working on his business now…

Why I had written about him is the famous evangelist of present days were mentioned as disciples to him… I had kept that article for long time but I missed it. I will try to search my old files and provide if it is available…

Now a days (very recent phenomenon) most of the links to him us are not working (!!!)

---------------------------- Extract from some of the web sites------------------------------------


Son of Man Paulaseer Lawrie, Manujothi Ashram stands in a sixty three acres of landscaped plot ... as at 5 a.m. from Ashram precincts to Tirunelveli Junction. ...
www.daysofsonofman.com/About Us.htm

http://www.geocities.com/lahari_krishna/othersites.html

http://www.geocities.com/lahari_krishna/

http://www.bethelthehouseofgod.net/ehbook8.html

http://narayanaconsciousnes.tripod.c...Home_page.html
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It seems he is no more... but some one is running the show at low profile. Most of his juniors who is running the show today want to disassociate with him. But the old proofs are existing... I will try to talk to some of the old people and find out....