New age IR's Raga Choices

[Sureshs65]

Kamal,

There was a sepcific reason why I was saying Sahana and Nattakurunji. These are restrictive in the sense they are vakra ragas and have special prayogas. So whether you like it or not you need to come to those prayogas in order to highlight the raga. If not you will skip into the territory of other ragas. Whereas ragas like Kalyani, MMG and the pentatonic scale ragas (Mohanam, Sudhadhanyasi, Sudhasaveri, Hindolam etc) don't have this restrictions. For example, you will find lot more songs in Madhyamavathi than in Sree Ragam. They both share the same arohana but the Sreeraga avarohana is vakara and that becomes a restriction. You need to keep using that phrase 'snpdn' or 'rigarisa' else the song will sound like Madhyamavathi. These are some technical points why some scale get explored more than others. Another reason why MMG or Kalyani or Keeravani or the pentatonics get explored more is that they are the scales which are often used in Western music.

The raga situation is like the n+1 story they used to tell about NRIs wanting to come back home. Currently the raga base used till now by Raja is 'n'. Now you want say two more ragas. Once Raja does that, the n+2 will become the new n and we will demand he now tune in two more new ragas and so on. As I said, we think the challenge lies in tuning in new ragas, because we see it as a challenge. Maybe Raja sees a challenge in using the same Suddha Dhanyasi scale and coming up with something which you have never heard before, like 'Jagadananda Kaaraka'. Everyone I spoke to felt this was a very fresh song and definitely did not resemble any of the Suddha Dhanyasi he did earlier. Similarly, 'Armuthamayi' did not sound like Kalyani we have heard from him earlier. So my question, why is tuning in a new raga a challenge and not when tuning in the same 'heard a zillion times Kalyani' and yet making it sound absolutely dew fresh? I want to give an example of another famous contemporary composers use of Ananda Bhairavi in slow songs wherein the Ananda Bhairavi sounds the same in all the songs but I refrain because it can lead us somewhere else. So my contention is, we are judging Raja by what challenges we want him to take up rather than understand what challenge he has taken up. Why is 'chandrabimbathin' not a challenge? It is not easy to make out it is Sreeranjani and it gives a totally different flavour to that raga.

Coming to 'Sreeramarajyam', I see the challenge as how to infuse freshness to the 'same old ragas' or 'cliched ragas'. Is this a challenge at all? You bet it is. I had given an example earlier. Added to it you can also hear any of the tunes belted out my MM Keervani to know what a cliche is and how to deal in the same old cliched way with the same old ragas. "Sreeramarajyam' is a mint fresh album. My wife, who doesn't listen to any Raja post 2000 albums (atleast she doesn't like most of them) called up her brother and cousins and adviced them to buy the CD. It was the same with lot of other friends, not all of them fans of Raja's recent work. So the connect happened with the people as far as this album was concerned. I would counter RR's argument by saying that we are more elitist asking for newer ragas when common man is very pleased with the album Raja has taken up Suddha Dhanyasi, Hindolam, Sindhubhairavi and has given them a fairly new color and has kept all of them very fresh. That is indeed a very tough thing to do as we all think these ragas have been used so many times not only by Raja but by so many other music directors.

Coming to a more pertinent point which Vel had mentioned earlier. Raja is indeed working on newer ragas and newer techniques of dealing with ragas but we probably are not understanding it. We want a 'Andhi Mazhai' or 'Pani Vizhum' or 'Vedam Nee', which will slap us on our face and say, "Look, I am so beautiful" Raja instead is experimenting in his own way on various ragas but not holding them up and showing off. Case in point: 'Baba Pugazh Malai'. Here is the album: http://www.raaga.com/channels/tamil/...sp?mid=td01741

While it is nice to now talk about usage of new ragas and all, how many wrote about this album? There are so many new ragas (or not often used ragas) in this album, along with some regularly used ragas. There are sruthi bedam happening and all but except for a handful of people no one wrote about this album. Please do listen to this album again and check out the not oft used ragas used here. While I do love people coming out and asking why Raja is using the same old ragas, it will be nice if people come out with more vigor when he does use newer ragas

In short (after a very long writeup) what I am saying is this. Challenges come in many shapes and sizes. We are thinking of only one challenge (raga challenge) which we want Raja to take. But Raja seems to be taking up other challenges. As a listener we cannot force a composer to take up our challenge Instead we must try and understand what the composer is trying to do.

[Sureshs65]

RR,

If there is one thing I have never agreed with anyone: Raja haters(direct haters and those in the garb of Raja lovers), HCIRF, casual listeners etc, that Raja has become complacent. I still state this very strong after listening to many of his late 90s and 2000s work: He has never been complacent!! Never, ever !! And I can show that throughout all the years. His drive for innovation has never come down, his search of newer things, his sense of perfection. They are always present. Yes, I would agree that many would not like his usage of synthesizers. There are many a times he comes with some very outdated synthesizer effects, his choice of singers has been less than optimal and in many cases the sound recording could have been much better. But, as far as music goes, there has never been any complacency. ;Baba Pugazh Malai' gets as much attention as 'Gayam 2' which gets as much attention as 'Thandavakone' etc etc. I for one, have not observed him letting me down musically.

Yes, his connect with the Tamil film music audience is not happening the way it used to. Youngsters don't find him hip enough (though there are quite a few youngsters who are gravitating towards him. Ask skr ). To many it feels like he is not in touch with the current reality and fads. But, if you are not worried about fads, his music has been excellent all along. If people are not listening to it, they are definitely missing out on something.

[thumburu]

Suresh,

That's a good hypothesis I have no issues with him exploring jazz or other stuff. That's the creator's space for innovation & experimentation. May befit his other movies (though I think 'common man' watching a 'commercial movie' feels left out by his current sort of elitist approach). But for movies like SRR..? That's where we started this discussion. As I already said, more than cliched ragas.. if I can say, a HCIR fan can feel much of cliched music in this album. (well.. not entirely but several songs..) Though I would think he can do much more with just the ragas he has already chosen and give completely fresh tunes, the choice of ragas could just be the reason for the deja vu feeling. I'm not implying that complex ragas is the only solution, the point is we want him not get complacent but go one more level up in innovation.. Just my thoughts, or rather aadhangam

Thank you RR for conveyong without ambiguity what I had in mind .

Suresh, Raja is fortunate to have a fabulous defence lawyer like u
You have bailed out Raja by citing his new found interest towards jaaz genre and also managed to deflect chief prosecutor aakarsh’s attention to some extent

vel quote :

the retort will be that those sabha kutcheri gamakkams are absent or the song is light etc.....if those gamakkams are added then it is not a folk number. The grammar originally defined for devotion will not be suitable for the different filmy situations/light music. the retort will be that those sabha kutcheri gamakkams are absent or the song is light etc.....

You seem to be thinking hard for others too and that too incorrectly in your desperation to defend IR.

vel quote :
if those gamakkams are added then it is not a folk number. The grammar originally defined for devotion will not be suitable for the different filmy situations/light music.

– Try telling your logic to IR . He defied this long back loud and clear. Iam just listening to a crackle of Karaharapriya in the folk-uncompromised “thaana vandha sandhaname”

[thumburu]

Suresh and V_S, Iam aware of how much SRR, as an album has resonated with u guys and I must Include plum who has written pages about the songs and movie as a whole. Good for all of u. The heart knows no reason and that is all that matters. What I find unpalatable is the " teknikal mulaam " like saraswathi/charamathi given to that too a rotten apple like “sanku shakraala” . So be it. I remember Mumbai Ramki terming it as plain embarrassment. May be I should have articulated better. More than the raga, it is the treatment, showing a novel facet of a raga , that counts.May be that was an excuse given to myself for finding “Jagadhanandha karaka” AND “Ramayanamu” just “good” and not “excellent”. My best pick from SRR,”Devulle menchulle” and my pick of 2011, “bhavani varugira” – I don’t care what ragas they are . Iam fascinated by these 2. Period.

[Sureshs65]

thumburu,

I am OK if you found 'Jagadhanandakaraka' good and not great. That's fine but I do think 'Ramayanamu' is a terrific song in the sense that he could conjure up multiple moods with the same Sindhubhairavi. To me and to some other friends, this song was one of the highlights. Ofcourse, 'SreeramaLera' was agreed by most people who spoke to me as being extremely fresh and it captured their imagination the same way that 'andhi mazhai' and 'pani vizhum malarvanam' captured their imagination in an earlier era. My wife was very upset when that song was cut into half in the movie. 'sanku chakrala' and the other folk song were more catering to Bapu I would say. As chief persecutor kamal had mentioned earlier those two songs were a throwback to the Bapu-KVM era and those who are familiar with Bapu's earlier association with KVM felt the same.

Raja, of course, doesn't need me as a defense lawyer, for I am not qualified for that Anyway here is a quote from the man I am currently reading, the Noble winning Polish poet, Czeslaw Milosz. He says,"..Cezanne kept on repositioning his easel and painting the same pine tree, attempting to devour it with his eyes and mind, penetrating its lines and colors, whose multiplicity stuck him as inexhaustible". I can't put it better. (Afterall Milosz is Noble Prize winner). Raja is like Cezanne, finding inexhaustible patterns in Mayamalawagowla, Kalyani, Mohan, Keeravani etc. Like the pine tree, apple, the rooftops which inspired Cezanne, Raja seems to be inspired by these ragas.

[jaiganes]

unga ellorukku indha sangeedha tharkuri enna sollikarennu 6:10 to 6:30 en dhosthu thengai seenivasan moolama therivichukaren.
<english> see the video from 6:10 to 6:30 to know what this musical illiterate feels about this debate.. </english>

[Sureshs65]

Jai,

No linkesh there.

[V_S]

Idhi Pattabhi ennaku pidikkalai'nu sollunga, I respect all your opinion. But terming it as rotten apple that too from a Raja fan, is truly shocking. Terming it as embarrassment is the real embarrassment for this wonderful composition. Tell me one such authentic folk composition.

Idhi Pattabhi - Observe the tabla rhythm structure when she finishes the anu-pallavi. The prelude starts with rolling tabla and shenoi (?) literally takes us to the village where dhobis enjoy singing while they wash the clothes (if I am not wrong). Minimalistic instruments with all concentration on singer and the tune. The turn flows freely until it meets the last line where we hear some sort of 'gudugudupai' sound. The voice of Swetha is 100% perfect to the setting. I suspect the voice of Swetha is taking back a few, but that is the voice which is the plus for this song and the setting. Also want to understand what is missing in this composition, instead of straight dismissal.

Please watch these videos how the kids have already taken up these songs and rendered it almost flawlessly for their age. These songs (every one of them) have already become a rage among telugu audiences and these songs have begun to appear on all singing shows. Again we need to shed our intellect listening capabilities and listen with telugu eyes and ears and also close to the milieu on which it was composed, to appreciate this outstanding composition better.



(playlist)

I guess there is a concern on one or two songs only, but on that account, are we dismissing SRR totally?. But there are 15 of them, it would be better to describe what falls short in each one of them for us to understand better.
I reiterate, this soundtrack will never come even from Maestro again. And after some 10 or 20 years, I definitely believe you will terribly miss this soundtrack.

[RR]

Suresh, good points! Thanks for agreeing on the audience disconnect and not getting into a staunch IR defense (which I was afraid we might get into). I think we are having healthy discussion here. For me, it's about understanding what's still excellent in his (in my tastes, routine) music. Coming to your points,

* It's definitely not about fads. I would say they are just gimmicks. I'm just asking songs of IR-calibre. As you rightly put it .. slap-on-your-face-and-say-I'm-good type music! Well.. he is still doing it but at a very low rate. 'kannai padithen' is a recent one. Simple song but who will not love the melody. I didn't realise it's behag until about several listen's (but my appreciation went to another high after that, anyway that's besides the point). How many other tunes can we list of this melodic type?

* kiru often tells me (where are you, man?) that IR is doing 'classical crossover' genre. It's logical IR takes this approach, and it's interesting. However, the presentation is an important factor here. The creator is giving something he thinks is good, but he must evaluate the feedback from the audience. Efforts like thiruvarasakam in symphony offer him complete freedom but film music does not. The audience ranges from nadutheru narayanan's to subbudu's (not to mention the $$$ invested), and its critical to consider how they are taking up his approach. Should analyze it unequivocally and adjust to it. Otherwise, we obviously will tend to think he is complacent (and some may term it 'technical arrogancy'). This may sound like taking in too far for a staunch fan but it's definitely not. I mean, if he really wants to please the major fan base, he better do it. I want him to. I'm quite sure he is more than capable.

[RR]

aakarsh, I coined the title to reflect the topic we started with and to be a li'l provocative. It's not a statement but a question to debate on. Will modify if there's a major objection.

V_S: emotions apart, I believe SRR is no way near what IR can deliver in terms of musical richness and appeal. Just take his recent Ramana geetham album for comparison. I'm looking forward to him giving an album beyond both our expectations.