New age IR's Raga Choices

[KV]

On Chandrabimbam, skr and I have been discussing about this song's ragam. He tells me that there was a discussion on twitter when it was released but I'm not aware of it. I also listened to a clipping of Vicky explaning this song where he says it is Sriranjani set to Madhyama shruthi. Here's a post I'd sent to skr (in our pm discussion). I thought it'd be a good idea posting it here as we're discussing ragam selection.
sa ni sa Ma Ga
Pa Ma Ga sa
sa ni sa ni da pa
This is the swara that I’m able to map the song to and the rest of the song follows similarly. Here are some observations:
1) There is no usage of Ri anywhere in the tune of the song (to me, at least)
That pretty much rules out Sriranjini. Any standard Sriranjani song has ample Ri usage, because of which I think this song somehow never gave me the feel of Srirajani. It seems tough to discount Ri from Sriranjani and get the same sound.

2) I think the placement of Sa is not really the thing that creates the confusion. Its rather the decision to use a Madhyama shruthi that muddles things. Firstly, why should the scale be shifted from Sa to Ma? Is there any specific reason to omit the original Sa and shift to Ma to make it the starting point of the scale. Why is it inappropriate to assume the original sa as sa and leave the ma as ma!?

3) Theoretically, as per a music teacher, this is done only for Eka sthayi ragams where the whole composition revolves within one sthayi (only sa to Ni, without hitting the upper Sa). He quotes Senjurutti as an example. This song in the charanams goes to the higher octave (konjum maalya ivide line). Would it then be theoretically right to assume a madhyama shruthi for this song?

4) The song seems to operate within S G3 M1 P D2 N2 S and S N2 D2 P M1 G3 S almost fully. With Sriranjani out of the equation for me, the other ragam in contention came up – Bagheshri. This ragam, though shares the same Arohanam, has a vakra avarohanam S N2 D2 M1 P D2 G2 M1 R2 S which also has Ri in it. All the descending phrases/lines in Chandrabimbam seem to have a linear descent with no vakram really. So, it sounds logical to me to assume the avarohanam as S N2 D2 P M1 G3 S. And when I looked up the chart, this combination reads ‘Pravritti’ (god promise, I’m hearing this name the first time!). Now, if Raaja really had this obscure scale in mind or just took up the more popupar Janaka ragam Chakravakam and simply ended up leaving out the Ri in his tuning process, I don’t know how many of us can have the exact answer to that!

5) The song that played in my mind as I heard Chandrabimbam is Adiye Kiliye (Kudaikkul mazhai; only the pallavi). I also had a bit of Mazhai Varudhu mazhai varudhu ringing afar. Adiye kiliye also seems to have had this Sriranjini versus Bhageshree debate (with an Abhogi in the equation as well!). The pallavi actually does not use Ri and Ma at all, which makes it S G3 P D2 N2 S and S N2 D2 P G3 S which the chart says in Valaji. (which when done a bedham yields Abhogi it seems!). This changes charanam onwards though.

[RR]

Friends,

This is the moderator in me speaking. It's great to see such scholarly (ahem) discussion happening. But pls keep the decorum and not get into personal attacks. For all we know, IR may be reading this. Tks!

[KV]

RR, the thread's title is quite awkward is what me also thinks. Something as simple as 'Choice of Ragams by new age Raaja - a discussion' would suit better, no?

[Plum]

KV, I wanted to say about Vidyasagar's nasikabhooshani - I knew it only from the lyrics boasting that "naasikabhooshani naan paadum raagam" - that it was very average so what price handling a rare raga?

[vel]

RR, the thread's title is quite awkward is what me also thinks. Something as simple as 'Choice of Ragams by new age Raaja - a discussion' would suit better, no?

Fully agree to this new title by KV....the old one seems to take a stance even before someone enters the thread,....RR, pls change the thread title.....

[Gregorysab]

Reg: thread title - i already suggested the change!

[RR]

Ok, thread title changed.

[vel]

Also RR, since carnatic is only one of the 23 music genres that Raaja has handled, please post a link in the title of this thread pointing to this Genres thread -- http://www.mayyam.com/talk/showthrea...088#post797088 ...may be you can say, please click here for other Genres from IR

[Sureshs65]

KV,

I don't know too much theory but this is what I gathered.

In many case the Sa is shifted to Ma in the Eka Sthayi ragas as you mentioned. Famous one being Kurunji, Navroj, Nadanamakriya. Here the shift to Ma is to give more power to vocalize. For example, Navroj's aro/avo is from lower sthayi Dha to madhyama sthayi Dha. Which means, in olden days before mike (and later mike Mohan) made its appearance, your voice wouldn't be heard because you are in low ranges only and since the raga doesn't allow you to go beyong dhaivatha, you cannot do much about reaching the ears of the audience. So they shift the Sa upwards and the vocalist makes the Ma as his new Sa. So you are now hitting the higher registers and you can register well with the audience (pun ofcourse intended ).

That is not the case with 'Chandrabimbathin'. The reason according to Vicky as to why it was tuned in Madhyama sthayi is more to do with the Werstern Rock / Classical music's need to have the Pa available to set chords. Again, those who known rock / WCM can contribute but from what I heard if a ragam without Pa is chosen it is very tough to set chords to it. If you shift your sruthi to Ma, then the new Ri falls on the Pa. So you have Pa with you to set the chords. Since you known how to play an instrument, you can probably check about this with someone with rock/ wcm knowledge.

[KV]

Thanks for the info, Suresh.
And yes, I did come across the chord point in Vicky's clip, but still have my doubts over this song. Will give it some more listens, yoschu solren.