The Greatest Indian Epic - Mahabharath

[S.Balaji]

Mr. HariKrishnan,

I get messages onto my Yahoo id... and browse this TFM.. ( my link is established from TFM to Yahoo id whenever any posting is made by other DFers on the said topic )

Thank you. I will be obliged if you can teach me how to do it.

Pls go to the top of this page... There will be an icon for PROFILE.
Pl click and you will get into your personal profile..

There is a field for your Email id.. If you update your id there and save it... You should get the updates related to the threads which you are a participant

[S.Balaji]

[quote][quote="Hari KrishnanThis point has already been answered. We should not be confusing today's ideas with yesterday's conventions. I do not see anything insulting here. He was known as the son of a charioteer and that was how almost everyone called him. Why should one exclude Draupadi and hold her critically, for something which was in vogue, practice, which was the convention?

In case you still want to call Draupadi arrogant, haughty etc. please do so. I am not her advocate )[/quote]

No. No.. Thats not my intentions at all... We are only trying to analyse what sequence of events that led to Duryodhana and Karna getting so negative against Draupadhi......

Though I sound critical of Karna here, I do have my admiration and love for this character. Even Duryodhana for the matter. I am a dispassionate observer of human behaviour. Nothing more than that

I had another query earlier... This is about the administration of Duryodhana when the Pandavas were in exile.. Was there any grief or complaint about his admn. capabilities.
Were the subjects happy with him....
Was he arrogant as a King also ....

Can you pls... clarify...

[Hari Krishnan]

No. No.. Thats not my intentions at all... We are only trying to analyse what sequence of events that led to Duryodhana and Karna getting so negative against Draupadhi......

If that is so,

a) The hostile feelings that Duryodhana had for Draupadi, stem from the jelousy that he had for Pandavas.

b) One has to go back to the day on which Kunti came to Hastinapur, after the death of Pandu, with Dharmaputra who was about 16, Bheema 15, Arjuna 14, and Nakula Sahadeva about 12. Duryodhana was a day younger to Bheema. He grew up in the palace of Hastinapur for the first 15 years with the feeling that he was the sole emperor of Hastinapur. That the sons of Pandu returned to Hastinapur was something which could not be digested by him. So was Dhritharashtra.

c) The logic is very complicated on the lien on crown of Hastinapur. Pandu was of course holding a care-taker government on behalf of Dhritharashtra. But nonetheless, it was he who expanded the kingdom and added to its frontiers.

d) The crown that was with Pandu, came back to Dhritharashtra since Pandu left for the jungle on self-exile.

e) Dhritharashtra wanted the crown to go to his son, undivided. But it could not be so, because Yudhisthira became the eldest.

f) Whatever it was, the opinion of the public was strongly in favour of Pandu's sons getting their fair share.

g) The half-share that was allotted to Pandu's sons was nothing more than an unusable, uninhabited forest. They built a city on it, wherein people came to reside. If it was a difficult task to establish a new city, it was more than difficult to get it populated. Which people would come to reside in a place if it is not well-protected, and well-governed?

h) Dharmaputra's fame reached beyond China, Java etc. He was well known everywhere. He performed the Raja Suya Yaga. Performing this Yaga needed the support of all the kings around. Either they have to pay their goodwill, or they have to fight against giving it. Nobody - including Sisubala - resisted when Dharmaputra sent his brother's around and everybody willingly partook in the Yaga. Dharmaputra had earned such name.

i) Duryodhana could not bear this. His impression of Dharmaputra was that he was a coward and that but for the support of Bheema and Arjuna, he could not survive.

j Duryodhana saw a match for Bheema in himself. He needed a match for Arjuna, which he found in Karna, whom he made a king when the latter was in an ugly situation, which was of his own making.

k) Karna kept adding fuel to fire. He was the one who was always intensifying the greed and unjustified desire of Duryodhana to annex the land of Pandavas.

l) Hostility against Draupadi stems from the fact that she was a black beauty. One should see how Dhritharashtra reacted when Vidura reported that Kauravas have taken the hand of Draupadi. And then Vidura tells Dhritharashtra, 'Do remember that the sons of Pandu are Kauravas too.' This desire for Draupadi was deep seated in Duryodhana and to an extent Dhritharashtra too (that is, in getting her for his son.) If evidence is needed, please read the portion on the game of dice, to know how meanly he behaved.

It is a very vast and complicated subject. I can provide the support material, evidence etc. for those who want to understand the subject. Having devoted more than 35 years of my life to the study of epics, I do believe I have a reasonable grasp, perceptive powers, and that I am honest enough to base my conclusions strictly on evidence.

On the other hand, if people think that I can be cornered with the evidence that I supply, I am out of this game. I have better things to do. I have enough conviction about what I have concluded and don't have to be told that my understanding is wrong, with the material that I supply.

We may proceed accordingly.


[/quote]

I had another query earlier... This is about the administration of Duryodhana when the Pandavas were in exile.. Was there any grief or complaint about his admn. capabilities.
Were the subjects happy with him....
Was he arrogant as a King also ....

Can you pls... clarify...[/quote]

Duryodhana's rule was perfect. He was a very able and good administrator. He was particular that the people should stand by his side when at the end of 13 years the Pandavas return. He was aware of the effects of adverse public opinion. Otherwise, why should 11 akshaunis stand behind him, while only 7 stood behind Pandavas?

[viggop]

HariKrishnan Sir
Was there a Kaurava known as Yuyutsu who joined Pandavas?

[Hari Krishnan]

HariKrishnan Sir
Was there a Kaurava known as Yuyutsu who joined Pandavas?

We know that Gandhari's pregnancy lasted for two years and more. During this period, a nurse was appointed to look after Dhrirasthra. According to one version this woman belonged to the Vysya community. Another version says she belonged to Sudra community. Yuyutsu was born to Dhritharashtra and this maid. Yuyutsu - much before the war commenced - joined the side of Pandavas. He was the one who was in charge of the kitchen/cooking during the Raja Suya that Dharmaputra conducted.

And, Yuyutsu was the sole survivor on the Kaurava side - apart from
Kripa, Krithavarma and Aswathama. Later, he became the guardian of Parikshith.

[viggop]

Kripacharya was also a greta warrior and he fought for the Kauravas.He was advisor to Dritharashtra.Also, brother in law to Dronacharya as Kripi was his sister.
But,no one managed to kill him.Why? Because Duryodhana was down before that and Kaurava side surrendered.Kripa along with Kritavarma stood outside as guardians when Aswathama butchered songs of Draupadi,Shikandi etc.
So, they also share the sin but I think they escapd without any punishment.Kritavarma was army chief of Yadava clan and was given to Duryodhana by Lord Krishna.

[S.Balaji]

I was exploring the various chances of the existence of the famous Gurukshetra where the war took place which is part of Haryana now ….

( BESIDES THIS, CAN SOMEONE BRING OUT THE VARIOUS RULERS AND THE KINGDOM THEY HAD RULED AND WHAT IS THE NAME OF THOSE KINGDOMS TODAY ? )


Here is an interesting article from Ms. Nandita Krishna who is Director, C P Ramaswami Aiyar Foundation , Chennai :
Last week, at the C P Art Centre in Chennai, T K V Rajan, archaeologist turned television producer, presented an exhibition titled "In Search of Krishna", a well-documented collection of material about the excavations conducted at the various sites connected with the life of Krishna and the events of the Mahabharata. In view of the ongoing excavations at Ayodhya, it is worthwhile to see what the Mahabharata excavations revealed.
Over 35 sites of the Mahabharata have been identified in the North, all of which have yielded material culture - painted grey ware (PGW) pottery painted over with designs in black pigment, and antiquities in uniform and identical levels. This pottery is made of a superior quality of paste formed of well levigated clay and fine, well-burnt fabric achieved by distributing heat in the kiln evenly. This civilisation is also characterised by the use of iron, unknown to the earlier Harappans.
Hastinapur, between Meerut and Mawana in Uttar Pradesh, is now a forgotten village, but excavations in 1952 revealed the existence of Vidur-ka-tilla (Vidura's palace), Draupadi-ki-rasoi (Draupadi's kitchen) and Draupadi Ghat (for bathing), besides copper utensils, iron seals, ornaments made of gold and silver, terracotta discs and several oblong-shaped ivory dice used in the game of chauper.
Iron objects numbering 135, and which included arrow and spearheads, shafts, tongs, hooks, axes and knives indicate the existence of a vigorous industry. There are indications of brick-lined roads and drainage systems, and an agro-livestock based economy. The PGW of Hastinapura has been assigned to 1100-800 BC. The events of the Mahabharata probably occurred around 1000-900 BC.
Later, according to the Matsya and Vayu Puranas, a heavy flood on the River Ganga destroyed Hastinapura, and Nichakshu, the fifth king after Parikshit (Arjuna's grandson) who ascended the throne after the Kurukshetra war, shifted his capital to Kausambi, 50 kilometres from Allahabad. There is definite archaeological evidence of a massive flood level. The devastation by the Ganga is still visible in the thick clay soil.
After their exile, the Pandavas asked for three villages: Paniprastha, Sonaprastha and Indiraprastha, generally identified with modern Panipat, Sonepat and Puranaqila in New Delhi. These sites have also yielded the same pottery and antiquities. Building structures with drainage systems and PGW were excavated at Purana Qila.
Kurukshetra, now in Haryana, was the site of the Kuru war. Excavations here have yielded iron arrow and spearheads, dated by Thermoluminence (TM) to 2800 BC. Today it is a town of bathing pools. At the Brahma Sarovar, a large lake 3,600 feet by 1,500 feet, Krishna, Balarama and Subhadra are said to have bathed after a solar eclipse. Bhishma lay on his bed of arrows at Bhishma Kund. Arjuna shot an arrow into the earth and a cool fountain of water flowed out directly into Bhishma's mouth, creating the Ban Ganga pond. Eight kilometres away is the village of Thanesar, the capital of Harsha Vardhana in the sixth century.
Yet, the excavations were stopped soon after these finds were revealed, and were never resumed. Why?
The submergence of Dwaraka is described vividly in the epic. Arjuna asked the residents to vacate the city immediately as it was going to be submerged by the sea. Dvaravati, according to the Sabhaparva of the Mahabharata, was heavily fortified. Dr S R Rao started excavating the Dwarkadish temple till he hit the remains of 15th, 12th and 9th century AD temples. He dug on, passing two earlier temples, until, at a depth of 9.5 metres, they came to the remains of two towns destroyed by the sea. From the earlier of the two they recovered the characteristic lustrous red pottery of the period and region. Encouraged by his findings, he decided to search for Dwaraka.
Underwater exploration yielded two gateways, fort walls, bastions and a jetty at a depth of 10 metres off Dwaraka, in the Arabian Sea. Apart from corresponding to the Mahabharata's description of the architectural features of the city and the mode of its submergence, it has directly fixed a date by TM for the pottery of Dwaraka at 3520 years BP (Before Present).
Other finds include pottery, bronze and iron implements, three-holed triangular stone anchors at Dwaraka, a late Harappan type of seal made of conch of a composite animal - a bull, unicorn and goat - and lustrous red ware pottery at Bet Dwaraka, linking the site to the Harappan culture, and thereby establishing its continuity.
Bet Dwaraka was an island frequented by Krishna who is said to have visited its Shankhodara Temple. It also contains the only ancient temple for Matsya, the epic saviour of the world at the time of the Great Flood. The materials discovered at Dwaraka corroborate history and myth, and fix a date for the inundation of the city - between 1500 and 1300 BC.
The most remarkable aspect of both epics is their geography. The Mahabharata mentions many small villages, tanks and hills, which are still identifiable.
What is the historicity of the Mahabharata? Our doubting historians will never accept any of these finds unless they are supported by inscriptions, which will never be forthcoming as the earliest Indian inscriptions belong to 300 BC. So, do we treat the epic as myth till they are satisfied?
Western scholars tried to establish a connection between Krishna and Christ, claiming that the former was derived from St Thomas' teachings about the latter, but literature and archaeology have proved otherwise. The Chandogya Upanishad mentions that Krishna Devakiputra was a student of Ghora Angirasa and the author of the Upanishad, which repeats the teachings of the Bhagavat Gita word by word.
In the 4th century BC, Chanakya refers to the story of Krishna's birth, while Megasthenes mentions that the Sourasenoi (Surasenas or Yadavas) worshipped Herakles (Krishna). Their two great cities were Methora (Mathura) and Kleisobora (Krishnapura?) on the navigable river Yobares (Yamuna). He also mentions that Herakles (Krishna) sent his daughter Pandaia to rule over the kingdom of Mathura (Madura) on the southern sea. Was she a descendant of the Pandavas, and did the latter re-emerge as the Pandyas, whose southern capital was named after Krishna's capital, Mathura?
Panini, Patanjali and the Buddhist and Jain works also mention Krishna and the events of the Kurukshetra war, while the Chinese traveller Yuan Chang records that a great war was fought at Kurukshetra and the bones of dead warriors lay buried under the soil.
In 180-165 BC, the Greek ruler Agathocles issued coins with images of Vasudeva holding a chakra. Several inscriptions are available in the first century BC: the Greek ambassador Bhagavata Heliodorus erected a Garuda column to Vasudeva at Besnagar; the Mora Well inscription near Mathura mentions the worship of the five Vrishni heroes, including Vasudeva; stone enclosures (Narayana vatika) were built for Vasudeva and his brother Shankarshana (Balarama) at Ghosundi and Hathivada.
The most controversial site is, of course, the temple at Mathura, the birthplace of Krishna. I am not aware if any excavation has been done here, but tradition and even eminent historians associate the site with the birth of Krishna, which is why Aurangazeb consciously chose to build a mosque over it.
Apart from knowing that vyuhas were army formations, I never really understood their formation or penetration. Rajan has computerised them to work out how the various Kaurava warriors were placed and how the Pandavas entered and destroyed these vyuhas, increasing the sophistication of what was always believed to be a primitive tribal war.
Krishna's divinity is a matter of faith, established by his identification with Lord Vishnu. But archaeology has conclusively established the veracity of the Mahabharata and the existence of the cult of Vasudeva-Krishna at a very early period. The epics form the soul of India, and Rajan has done well to document and bring alive ancient history.

[S.Balaji]

Let us discuss about the various individuals who participated in the war and their kingdom…
There is one school of thought that some kings from South India also took part…


The Pandava Army
The Pandava Brothers:
Prince Yudhisthira, Eldest son of Pandu
Prince Bhima, Second son of Pandu
Prince Arjuna, Third son of Pandu
Twin Princes Nakula and Sahadeva, Youngest sons of Pandu

The Kingdom of Panchala:
King Dhrupad, Father-in-Law of the Pandavas
Prince Shikhandi, Elder son of Dhrupad
Prince Dhrishtadhyumna, Younger son of Dhrupad

The Kingdom of Matsya:
King Virata, Friend of the Pandavas
Prince Uttara, Son of King Virata

The Kingdom of Dwaraka:
Prince Satyaki
Prince Krishna (Served as Charioteer to Arjuna - vowed not to lift weapons during the war)

Others
Demon Ghatotkacha, Son of Bhima through the demoness Hidimba
Prince Abhimanyu, Son of Arjuna through Princess Subhadra of Dwaraka

The Kaurava Army

The Kaurava Brothers:
Prince Duryodhana, Eldest son of King Dhritarashtra
Prince Dushasana, Second son of King Dhritarashtra
And 98 others…..

The Kingdom of Hastinapur:
Bhishma, Grand-uncle to Pandavas and Kauravas, forced to side with Kauravas due to loyalty to King Dhritrashtra
Drona, Teacher to Pandavas and Kauravas, forced to side with Kauravas due to loyalty to King Dhritrashtra
Ashwathama, Son of Drona
Shakuni, Maternal uncle to the Kauravas ( WHO WAS THE KING OF KANDHAR , NOW ITS IN AFGANISTHAN !! )
Kripa, Family Sage and Advisor to the Kuru Dynasty, forced to side with Kauravas due to loyalty to King Dhritrashtra

The Kingdom of Anga:
Karna, illegitimate and abandoned elder brother of Pandavas, believed by most at the time to be son of a charioteer, but actually the son of Kunti

The Kingdom of Madra
King Shalya, Maternal uncle to the Pandavas, tricked into giving a promise to fight for the Kauravas by Duryodhana and Shakuni

The Tribe of Trigartha
Chief Susharma

The Kingdom of Dwaraka
Kritaverma, General of the Dwaraka Army ( as per the wishes of Duryodhana, Krishan gave his entire army to fight for Gauravas while he agreed to the wishes of Arjuna to be his Charioteer and will not take up arms )

The Kingdom of Sindh ( WHICH IS PART OF PAKISTAN NOW ! )
King Jayathradha, Brother-in-law to the Kauravas
Others – Bagadhathan… known for his Elephant based warfare.
Poorisiravas…..another valiant warrior…

[S.Balaji]

During the Kurukshetra war, several weapons were used. The weapons, and their most notable users, included:
Bow and arrows- Arjuna, Bhishma, Drona, Karna, Abhimanyu, Aswathama
Mace- Bhima, Duryodhana
Spear- Yudhishtira
Dagger/Sword- Nakula, Sahadeva

[S.Balaji]

The two Supreme Commanders met and framed "rules" for the war. The rules included:
·Fighting must begin no earlier than sunrise and end exactly at sunset.
·Multiple warriors may not attack a single warrior.
·Two warriors may "duel," or engage in prolonged personal combat, only if they carry the same weapons and they are on the same mount (no mount, a horse, an elephant, or a chariot).
·No warrior may kill or injure a warrior who has surrendered.
·One who surrenders becomes a prisoner of war and a slave.
·No warrior may kill or injure an unarmed warrior.
·No warrior may kill or injure an unconscious warrior.
·No warrior may kill or injure a person or animal not taking part in the war.
·No warrior may kill or injure a warrior whose back is turned away.
·The rules specific to each weapon must be followed. For example, it is prohibited to strike below the waist in mace warfare.
·Warriors may not engage in any "unfair" warfare whatsoever