The Golden Era of Dr.IR and Dr.SPB

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Originally Posted by Plum

I think given the strong Telugu brahmin ambience of K Viswanath's world, which reflects in his movies, songs and lyrics, with endless off-the-cuff references to Hindu Gods and the myths associated with them in parallel to the story and situation, atheist Vairam is not exactly comfortable in translating the idioms seamlessly. It is a tough task, admittedly, and probably needed Kannadasan to do justice.

It is not that Vairam doesn't know Ramayana or Mahabharatha or possibly even scriptures and other stories. But it is clearly not inside him as it would be inside someone like Kannadasan or Veturi, lyricist for this song. Veturi probably is able to empathise with the protagonist's cultural background as he is from the same background. The references slip out from him very casually - they don't even seek attention as references.

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It looks like Venki is busy or not in a mood to engage. Let me step-in.

You are brain storming all ideas why Tamil lyrics is not as good as Telugu one while ignoring the obvious. The Telugu lyricist got the first chance to write lyrics and most probably got reviewed by director and revised few times. Tamil lyricist had to write song that lip synch well with Telugu lyrics, fit the tune and also make some sense in Tamil. Also we will never know how much of it was translated by Raja himself. There is no wonder it is not as good as Telugu original for you and I wonder about the usage of weird words in Tamil. Salangai Oli songs have very "foreign" sounding words. They could have just released the original as is, like Sankarabaranam.

Of all K.V's movies Sippikkul Mutthu has the best Tamil Lyrics (Vaali?) and another Kamal movie has the worst.

#139 வேதம் அணுவிலும் ஒரு நாதம்
(சலங்கை ஒலி, 1983 , ஷைலஜாவுடன்)

Excellent, musically rich number that does the climax of this movie. Still, in my ranking within the movie, this comes at the bottom - for inexplicable reasons. How can a song that sounds so sweet, has SPB and his sis, classically based, supposedly for a historic scene - not occupy the top spot in the album? Well, to explain this, I need to get into the favourite food analogy again :wink:

Back to Coral hostel days of 3rd sem where me and my room mate - "narambans" in appearance - were often wondering how those northies are so mOtA but we are not. The brilliant conclusion was "it has to be the diet". Well, we decided to switch to the "B" mess just behind our hostel where most northies ate.

The morning menu was pretty much similar to the other messes, kaLLichchottu kAppi in the early AM, then at 8 AM or so 4/5 slices of bread -toasted with butter on both sides- plus eggs - often mixed with onions / cayenne + black pepper powders & salt, not allowed to fully fry on the dOsaikkal , called "onion-half-boiled" - plus kaLLichchottu tea.

Lunch was different - chappAththees got served daily, have 4-5 of them with excellent dAl fry & beans, then rice with dAL -ghee, rasam, vegetables, fish on some days - and finally a cup of curd with one spoon of sugar. We had food much like everyone else around us. Followed by another kaLLichchottu tea at 3 PM.

Dinner was a variety of things each day, rich diet no doubt and we ate like any of those mOtA fellows - quantity and quality alike for months - but, alas, we continued to be the same songi narambans :-(

Well, we got educated on genes, metabolism and many other factors that play via this exercise.

Much like that for the last songs of Sindhu Bhairavi and Salangai oli. Excellent songs, hyped settings within the movie (ArOhanam in the case of SB, periya build-up with hospital scenes in the case of SO) but the end result is not the gold medal within the album. Reason? The genes / metabolism / etc that elevated the other numbers beyond reach :-)

SPS has to be commended for this song, tremendous effort to bring in the feel!
(aNNA paththi sollavE vENAm - not HajArE aNNA, ShailajAvOda aNNA)

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Originally Posted by Plum

Needless to say, all those posts came spontaneously at the mere mention of the song. There was no need to refer by playing it.
Etched in memory. This is art fusing 5 extraordinary artists each of them in extraordinary form. No, I am not counting Pradha, who is slightly more than adequate.

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BTW, who form the extraordinary pAnch?

rAsA, bAlA, hAsar, KV & Veturi?

Finally, after the long weekend, I've caught up with the song-a-day track!

There is this glorious duet left from SO, that will get posted tomorrow and bring 1983 to a sweet conclusion :-)

Genesis, I am only talking about the result. Don't take it as a slur on the lyricist. We recognise the perils of dubbing. The point I was making was that in this song, a probably frustrated Vairam throws lip-sync to the bin. He doesn't even make an attempt to match lip-sync, unlike in Naada Vinodam. Despite the jettisoning of this constraint, the results are unsatisfactory. To express something, you need to experience it. KV, his sensibilities, Veturi, this particular character in the movie all have alien sensibilities to Vairam. Therefore, his effort is intellectual not heartful. That's not a disgrace to the lyricist.
The exmaple I quoted is telling - in telugu, there is an explicit reference to the very Hindu philosophy of narudi brathuku natana, Eshwaridi talapu gatana. (Fate and God's will). This is in keeping with the character's background and sensibilities.
Vairam translates it to the same meaning but a more generic, agnostic platform. He says "you agreed to take this journey of life. It will start and end when it does". Explicit reference to Ishwara is removed. The emphasis is more on the individual here. In Telugu, there is almost a derisive self-effacing, resigned acceptance of God's will. It is still not heartful acceptance. There is a taste of bitterness in it(afterall human being nee vERa enna paNNa mudiyin unnala iraivan viruppam appadi irukka) but also that the protagonist is coming to terms with it.
In tamil, the words imply a very philosophical stoic full acceptance without the nuances.

Since he made the point of veering away from the constraints of lip-sync for this song, one can say Vairam didn't do enough justice to the character and situation. The usual dubbing constraints argument don't apply to this song.

I made that nuanced differentiation between the song with lipsync constraint and the one without it, in my previous post itself.
Yet, you clubbed the two and claimed "lip sync" constraint for both the songs together. Why?

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Originally Posted by app_engine

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BTW, who form the extraordinary pAnch?

rAsA, bAlA, hAsar, KV & Veturi?

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Yes, ofcourse.

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Tamil lyricist had to write song that lip synch well with Telugu lyrics, fit the tune and also make some sense in Tamil. Also we will never know how much of it was translated by Raja himself. There is no wonder it is not as good as Telugu original for you and I wonder about the usage of weird words in Tamil.

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Wow!

sari, oru vishayam sollunga. iLaya nilA pozhigiradhae-la which lines we'll never know how much of it was written by Raja himself?

Secondly, as I pointed out, in this song, Vairam broke free of the lip-sync constraint in this song so the dubbing-lip-sync-constraints defence doesnt apply to this particular song. Having broken free of the constraints, he had the opportunity to showcase his skills fully. While he showcased his own poetic skills, and his own take on the philosophy, IMO, he missed out on the nuances of this character and its sensibility.

Beautiful posts there, App. Silky as a drive off VVS' blade!
Plum, genesis, keep the discussion going... very interesting stuff.

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Originally Posted by Plum

Wow!

sari, oru vishayam sollunga. iLaya nilA pozhigiradhae-la which lines we'll never know how much of it was written by Raja himself?

Secondly, as I pointed out, in this song, Vairam broke free of the lip-sync constraint in this song so the dubbing-lip-sync-constraints defence doesnt apply to this particular song. Having broken free of the constraints, he had the opportunity to showcase his skills fully. While he showcased his own poetic skills, and his own take on the philosophy, IMO, he missed out on the nuances of this character and its sensibility.

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I am not sure whether you really do not know or pretending. It is well known in hub, that VM wrote it as "Salavai Nila Pozhigirathey", but IR changed the word "salavai" to "Ilaya". As we all know "Ilaya Nila" sounds better than awkward "Salavai Nila", but VM's words bring the image of full moon in your mind immediately.

I think you are so hung-up with VM not referencing God. I never missed God in these lines, since I do not understand Telugu. Remember it is not translation, but dubbing. If you ask VM to translate w/o other constraints he may be able to come-up with better words.

Also this song is mostly long shot with rain so lip-synch was not important. As you may know lip-synch is required only when the viewers can observer the lip movements. So even with in a song, based on the shot on screen, lip synch may or may not be required.

Every language has its own specialties; if you attempt a literal translation of certain sentences it may sound vague in another language or even funny. I am sure you know many Tamil songs that got butchered when they got dubbed in Telugu. (As Telugu people are more accommodative of dubbed films compared to Tamil). Unfortunately as my Telugu is close to 0%, I am not able to reference any song.

One interesting incident: I was a big fan of Chiranjeevi movies in my teens. In one of the movie some character referenced a full Thirukkural in a dialogue, and the whole theater shouted to register their objection.

You have not answered a single point I made. Instead, your responses are more and more generic and circumventing my points. Why?
For starters, I didn't ever point the lack of lip-sync as a problem so why justify lack of lip-sync:huh:

Do you pretend not to understand or just another muddying tactic?