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wasnt the recent prakash jha movie more on the lines that you told (not the kid growing up to be a collector though).Quote:
Originally Posted by kid-glove
As far as the messed up climax is concerned - well at that time i felt happy for not seeing Rajini's character in a body bag - later on - i wonder thats the best that can be done with a commercial hero like Rajni in your project - so that is a maaf.. - Though I loved Rajini's raw display of vengeance on kali varadhan and co..
Yeah that Jha film is Godfather meets Mahabharath.
I was not in supportive of that ending. It looked kinda lame to me. Especially with Rajini squealing like a wounded animal. Amrish Puri would squat Rajini, Fact.
Fast closure to a brooding drama is never a good idea..Quote:
Originally Posted by kid-glove
true Surya dead in collector's doorstep with his mom holding him - kinda "deewar / thee" ending would be a full paisa vasool for the drama it is worth..
I'd extend this criticism beyond just the ending. The film is too melodramatic to effectively handle the sheer drama of the original material. Surya and Kalyani (btw, just a thought here, is Mani Ratnam referencing parAsakthi?) hug and cry their hearts out! It's all as if the separation didn't engender an irreparable loss (except the passage of some 30-odd years) which is in many ways central to the Karna-Kunti relationship.
Even early on, the way the film shows Surya and Deva becoming friends is somewhat tacky. It's not the economy I'm objecting to. Bala (who clearly had thaLapathi in mind when making some of his films if not all!) employed more or less the same sort of economy in nandhA, but the growing intimacy between the two is not portrayed with abrupt in-your-face gestures as in thaLapathi.
தேவராஜ், சூர்யா இருவரின் சந்திப்பு - கலக்டர் அர்ஜுனோடு..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DL83pHb3SLs
"கோர்ட் என்ன சொன்னாலும் நீங்க சொல்றதுதான் சட்டம்" "உதவி செய்ய கோர்ட் இருக்கு, சட்டம் இருக்கு", இந்த தளத்துல மணி ஒரு அர்ஜுன் கதாபாத்திரம் ஏற்று நடித்த அரவிந்சாமியின் நடிப்பின் தூரம் போல. சிலருக்கு சில தளங்கள். இதெல்லாம் ராம்கோபால் வர்மா போன்ற இயக்குனர்களுக்கு கைவந்தக் கலை. இந்தக் காட்சியில் அர்ஜுன், தேவராஜ், சூர்யா, டி.எஸ்.பி கிட்டி போன்றவர்களின் வசனங்கள் எதோ வீட்டுல அப்பா, அக்கா, அண்ணன், சித்தப்பாக்களோடு சேர்ந்து உட்கார்ந்து பேசுவது போல. சூர்யாவின் "ஜனங்க எங்க மேல வச்சிருக்கிற நம்பிக்கை" - இவர் ரவுடியா இல்லை எம்.எல்.ஏ-வா என சந்தேகமே வந்துவிடுகிறது. இந்த ஒட்டுமொத்த உரையாடலிலிருந்து நான் ரசிக்கும் ஒரே இடம் "மரியாதையில்லாம பேசுற அடி ராஸ்கல்!" "ஏய்!! தொடறா பார்க்கலாம்., தொடறா பார்க்கலாம்" (இது போன்ற ரத்தம் சூடாகும் காட்சிகள் நாயகனில் இயல்பாக அமைந்திருந்தது. அதனாலேயே இன்னமும் உட்கார்ந்து பார்க்க முடிகிறது) - அப்படியும் டி.எஸ்.பியை இப்படி திட்டிவிட்டி வந்தால் எப்படி சிறப்பாக லாடம் கட்டுவார்கள் என்பதை ராம் கோபால் வர்மா படங்கள் தெளிவாக சொல்லிவிடும். நாயகனின் சாயல் தொடரும் தளபதியில் இல்லை. மணியின் ஆளுமை என நான் கருதுவது: குடும்ப உறவுகள்-பிரச்சனைகள், காதல், துடிப்பான இளைஞர், இளைஞி, குழந்தை(கள்). எப்படியோ இருந்திருக்க வேண்டியது எப்படியோ போய்விட்டதென உணர்கிறேன் எப்போதெல்லாம் தளபதிக் காட்சிகளை பார்க்க சந்தர்ப்பம் கிடைக்கும் போது.
This actually is the signature of most if not all Mani's films. I mean the way he builds relationships. You either buy it or don't. There is no middle ground. I think they are *artificial* by design. You either get *convinced* or don't. I for one did not find problems with it. And its not just thaLapathi - To quote a couple - Alaipayuthey Maddy/Shalini (nee azhagaa irukkEnu ninaikkalai, seriously), Nayagan (with Saranya, invests very little time)Quote:
Originally Posted by equanimus
Nerd,
It's not about the economy-ன்னு அங்கயே clarify செஞ்சிருக்கேனே. In this scene, the two hug right there. Deva is after all a local don and is not a peer to Surya in any way. It's quite like the '80s films (aNNAmalai-esque) where two young boys, the hero and his friend, patch up and join hands quickly after an initial fight.
அலைபாயுதே-லல்லாம் அருமையா வந்திருக்கும். :)
For 30 odd years, this child fostered intense feelings about this abandonment, and the ill feeling and shame it has brought on him. Mani shows this. One meeting by the sun with Jai Shankar is enough to get past it. Suddenly the fact that she was a 16 year old woman at the time, is enough for him to turn it against himself. Compromised dialogues there. The accidental manja saree encounter and the immediate sequence didn't work as melodrama, did it? The impact was not there to categorize it as melodrama. I thought it was a deliberate choice to be less melodramatic. To make a hugely manipulative melodrama, Nandhalala, Sethu, Nanda, Pithamagan kind of twist of fate is necessary. Or do you mean melodrama by means of 'crying' alone? Mani shies away from NT-esque melodrama even when they almost roll around the floor and cry. NT gestural acting was missing. Although Rajini does really well within the limited framework to let the audience feel for him, he's no NT. 'neenga nallavara kettavara' kind of melodrama was missing. Even Devaaaaaaaaaaaaa didn't come off as melodramatic. Mammooka isn't quite pleased by the film and the synthetic framework of Mani. He after all was part of the greatest melodrama ever made (which incidentally has actively inspired Bala)
என்ன சார், இந்த லாடம் கட்டுறதெல்லாம் தளபதிலயே வருமே. "தெரியாதுடா" 'ன்னு சொல்லி ஏட்டு கிட்ட(யோ எஸ்.ஐ. கிட்டையோ) அடி வாங்குற சூர்யா வேற, "இது சூர்யா சார், உரசாதீங்க" 'ன்னு கலெக்டர் கிட்ட சொல்ற சூர்யா வேற. ஆனாலும் டீ.எஸ்.பீ.யிடமா ன்னு நீங்க கேக்கலாம், எல்லாம் ஒரு artistic license தான். இதுக்கெல்லாம் கேள்வி கேட்டா எப்படி?Quote:
Originally Posted by venkkiram
IMO, alaipayuthe nd Mounaraagam plot is same..
The common betn. two :
1. Ego arising betn hero nd heroine after marriage..
2. Vittu kodukkama irukkirathu..
3. Misunderstanding
4.
4. All of the aboveQuote:
Originally Posted by VTV
One of the problems for thaLabathi was it came AFTER nAyakan.
lol.. its nt choose the best answer.. :banghead:
Yes... apdi vanthiruntha Thalabathi would be one of 'Top 100 movies' of TIME..:smokesmirk:Quote:
Originally Posted by app_engine
How is that a problem? After all, Nayakan isn't a great film, let alone a classic, by most people's standards here.
And Mani never learns, does he? Look what that police officer's kid did to Nayagan, shot to his head. Uneasy to the point of patricide, that little girl and Suriya share bed time stories. When she finds out, would she do all the stuff that black kid would do to Uma Thurman in KB-3?
Oh, I'm not talking about ill feeling here, k-g. Here's a 32-year old man who's just introduced to his biological mother as a stranger. The emotional gap between the two is what I'm talking about. Mani's treatment here draws from the most turgidly melodramatic/sentimental rendering of the Kunti-Karna relationship rather than reflect on all the dramatic dimensions of such an encounter.Quote:
Originally Posted by kid-glove
Oh, I should clarify here. Mani Ratnam is of course one of the pioneers of naturalistic acting, understated style and so on. By melodrama, I don't mean over-the-top performances at all. I'm primarily talking about the writing, specifically a sort of mellowing down the sheer dramatic tension to something merely maudlin. For instance, let's take dheyva magan. I think the sheer drama of the confrontation between the rich father and the abandoned elder son is so powerful. The performances are mostly over-the-top but that doesn't make the scene maudlin.Quote:
Originally Posted by kid-glove
Yeah, maudlin, but also neither here nor there.
Re-NT,
You term it as 'Over-the-top', but I'd seen a intense, nuanced performance, that makes it powerful.
Yeah, that's why brought up Secrets and Lies in one of my response to Jai. Look how two strangers meet as biological mother and daughter. And 'kiss and make up' is my dig at Thalapathy..Quote:
Here's a 32-year old man who's just introduced to his biological mother as a stranger. The emotional gap between the two is what I'm talking about.
Kunti-Karna relationship. I haven't read the original text. The version I read, to go along with my underage when I read it, was too flat to get the original tonal sensibilities. But I sort of get the various nuances and possibilities, it'd have been a richer film to imaginatively adapt or subvert it.
Naanum economy mattum dhaan problem(!) nu sollaleeng. Most relationships in Mani films are artificial if you look at them from a distance. Mani's biggest victory lies in the fact that the setting etc., is so good that you can't distance yourself away from the proceedings. But if you are in the mood to deride any of his films, there are plenty of LOL-worthy lines / scenes, like the one you qouted. Deva has no business to stoop down to the level of Surya to accept him as his commander-in-chief. But he does, in a very effective scene. Rain and all that :lol2: I bought it. Or he was just in the mood for recruiting someone. indha kaalaththula sila technical blogs paarththu hire pannra maadhiri :-)
NT's gestural acting alone lifts up ordinary 'maudlin' seem powerful and strong melodrama.
Louis Malle calls NT TFI's Belmondo. 100 Brando's, 200 Mifune's, 300 Belmondo's, 400 Vittorio Gassman's put together would never equal 1000 different faces of NT's.
Bachchan propaganda machinery'lam 70's scriptwriters vechu aadurainga. Bloody retards.
Oh, certainly. This is one of my all-time favourite Sivaji films, his performance here is a blistering one (pun not intended). Why do you equate (or think I mean to equate) over-the-top to not up to the mark or something to that effect? :) Superb and over-the-top, that's what I mean. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by kid-glove
Oh okay. Secret and Lies kELvippattadhu kUda kidaiyAdhu, but got the dig.Quote:
Originally Posted by kid-glove
I disagree, I think Mani Ratnam generally gets such dynamics right. Artificial dialogue ellAm vERa debate. (I think that charge itself is quite dubious.) Watching the film as a kid, I was in awe of the film (though the Kamal fanboy in me insisted on placing it just below Guna :)) just as I was with any Mani Ratnam film, but upon revisiting, the one-dimensional melodrama of this film did seem to me like an 'aberration' of sorts for a Mani Ratnam film. I mean, he's this filmmaker who's particularly acclaimed for his portrayal of individual relationships (now the most cliched assessment of MR but it's true nevertheless). Here, the relationships appear fairly one-dimensional. Think of lines like "unna mAdhiri oru aNNan enakku irundhirundhA, en ammA unna eppavO vitteRinjuruppAnga." Such in-your-face lines in a Mani Ratnam film, are they usual?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerd
But yeah, I make this as a criticism on what is otherwise a very compelling film. It works superbly as a (signature MR) subdued masala film and Rajini (and the way his hero is 'fashioned') is tops, no two ways about it. It's just that I think Mani is not on the top of his game. Even within the early films, I prefer agni natchaththiram to this film.
enna ipdi kaettutteenga...Quote:
Originally Posted by equanimus
pidikkila... neenga thottaa kambilipoochi oorrura maadhiri irukku - said to a husband on his face...
but in thalapathys case, its a collector uttering the dialogue to a local rowdy whom he thinks as the enemy of the state..
dhairiyaththukku (adhAvadhu indha character eppadi andha character kitta ippadiyellAm pEsum-nu ellAm) sollallainga, I mean the contrived nature of such an exchange of lines between the two (Arjun saying exactly what his mother actually did). To be fair, I think such an 'implausible' dialogue could be used to have a great dramatic effect, but then as k-g says, the problem is perhaps that Mani Ratnam is neither here nor there.
i understand the context of that line with respect to surya and can very well understand how that thunderbold would have struck in surya's heart which actually mutes hiim for a brief moment..
naanum dhairiyatthukku ellaam sollalai... just brought that in defence to answer ur question if in-your-face lines in a Mani Ratnam films are usual.
That mute works for a brief while and RK at his best, in deed. But you have to accept that 'in-your-face'-ness of Swamy's dialogue is on another level entirely, compared to Revathy dialOk, considering the context of the whole plot and the film.
accepted.
Equa, akkini-layE paarunga. Karthik-Nirosha. Now what the hell was that? And he got away with that did not he? Agree thats not as central to the film as Surya-Deva is, but you get the point. And even the Ashok-Gautham confrontation scenes (the dialogue, which I can't recall now just before the famous errest him is in-your-face too, I mean using *that* as a weapon) are laborious. And the less said about the comedy track / climOx the better, very poor packaging and he actually loses control over the proceedings towards the end.
In Agni, there's a stiltedness when either of the sons go to the 'other' family. This stiltedness was missing, no? It is what that makes Agni so naturalistic. Even the confrontations. The sons from being at each other's throat to saving their father from deep end, it was all well realized only, no?
Take that Arrest sequence, the 'lowness' on elite son's part, makes it interesting. Arjun has no chinks in his armour, hence the 1-dimensional stick to beat him with.
Similar moments in T: Rajini looking for collector saar runs into Shobana / Mammootty asking Rajini to kill collector saar. In Akkini Gautham saving Ashok's sis from the villain gang, that train scene, the tension between them, soober.
பருத்தி வீரனில் ஏட்டையாவின் காதறுக்கும் நிகழ்வும் இந்த லைசன்ஸின் உச்சம். இதெல்லாம் படத்தில் தாரளாமாக வைக்கலாம். ஆனால் விளைவுகளையும் உடனுக்கு உடன் காட்டிடணும். ஏனென்றால் இது(அரசு அதிகாரத் துறையுடன் மோதுவது) ஃபாண்டஸி உலகம் அல்ல.Quote:
Originally Posted by equanimus
ellaa scene, dialoguekkum enna reactionnu detailaa kaattinaa padam 3600 maNi nEram Odum :roll:
after that meeting between Deva Gang and Collector Gang, arasu endhiram enna action edukkumnu detailaa kaattiruppaangaLE (Police gang round kattifying and suppressing Deva gang activities)
Surya sound vittadhaala avarukku nadandha special treatment information details ellaam kaattinaalum - Surya va muttiladhaan adichaanga, jattiyOda nippaatti adikkalanu makkaL solluvaanga (bcoz that is police treatment enbadhu idheegam).
illaina mattum? :shaking:Quote:
Originally Posted by app_engine
Nayakan was right on the money. Remba clear theme and the movie hurriedly get's to it's spirit/essence without wasting time on details which can be clearly assumed/understood without being spoon fed with images. Not a single scene in Nayakan can be called a waste and the movie is at it's precise best without losing out on the emotional quotient. :notworthy:
Being a biopic like Nayakan, Iruvar had much more finesse in execution but Nayakan is first and Mani would have mastered it with Iruvar after doing Nayakan.
nayagan : thalapathi - not a fair comparision, pls.
Y...more or less both r same plot ...
IMO, Iruvar is the best of all mani films.. nayakan kooda aduthuthaan...Quote:
Originally Posted by Movie Cop
அய்யய்யோ, அது எனக்குச் சேராது. நீங்க சொல்ற மாதிரி விளைவுகள் எதுவும் கூட இருக்காது. காமெடிக்கு ஏதோ பண்ணிருப்பாங்க. கடுப்பா இருஞ்சு பாக்கும்போது.Quote:
Originally Posted by venkkiram
எனக்கென்னமோ நீங்க தளபதில வர்றதயே தனியா சொல்ற மாதிரி இருக்கு. "தெரியாதுடா"-ன்னு சொல்ற சீனை முதல்லயே குறிப்பிட்டிருந்தேனே. Mani Ratnam employs a nice sleight of hand of sorts here that gives the impression that the hero is as such indomitable but also stays true to the realities of the world it otherwise represents. ஹீரோ தனியாளா எதிர்த்து நிக்கற காட்சிகளை மட்டும் focus பண்ணிட்டு, அதிகாரிகள் கட்டி போட்டு அடிச்சதை elide பண்றது. It's very effectively done in the initial "தெரியாதுடா" scene I'm referring to. Bala also does something similar for சித்தன் in பிதாமகன்.Quote:
Originally Posted by venkkiram
:rotfl2:Quote:
Originally Posted by sathya_1979
Much of the scenes related to "pro-people-don" were novelties in N but dejavvu in T. (It needed a Rajini & his dynamics to lift that scene with the 'poNam' dialog to Shobana).Quote:
Originally Posted by Movie Cop
Also, rombbbbbba-nEram-adichchu-udhaichchu-konnavanOda kuttiya adopt paNNuRadhu is a repeattu.
That way, if not for Rajini (& songs), T would have been intolerable IMO.