Is SC's verdict on reservation good for our development ?

[sriranga]

I have many of my friends who studied with me through reservation quota, they had studied in tamil medium till 12th. then, they cudn't cope with engineering. they failed badly and cudn't find a decent job..

Do you mean ,it is just because they studied in Thamizh medium ?

Thamizh medium-la padicha students-la avanga bright students, no doubt. But, after 12 years of education in tamil, they struggled in engineering due to their lack of english knowledge.

The resevation system, though, guaranteed them a seat in engineering, didn't help them after that.

Hmm .Pls don't generalise .There are so many people studied in thamizh medium and they not only became Engineers ,but IAS officers ..Even Dr.Abdul kalam studied in Thamizh medium only.

Myself studied in thamizh medium only upto 12th and I didn't struggle anywhere because I studied in Thamizh medium.

If at all any lack of standard in that ,that is because of the poor maintenance and care taken by the Govt for rural area schools ,which failed to give standard education and facilities for students ,not because of Thamizh medium.

Tamizh medium students are at a disadvantage when it comes to engineering education where the medium is english.
your examples are exceptions to the rule. ( You could've done even better if you had studied in english medium.)
if you can't agree on this, i don't think its worth discussing any further.

athathaan, people like Narayamurthy are telling the government to improve standard of primary education.

[Roshan]

We also need to know the % of improvement in the lives of BC/OBC since the quota system was introduced . Anybody has the stats ?

thats not a fair arguement......they have been oppressed for centuries and we expect turnaround in decades

Adhu !!

Maddy, it is all about opening new avenues to sections of the populations who have not been able to make it due to social conditions and even mindsets ingrained over the years.

The yen for higher education grows with exposure. In communities traditionally underexposed to higher education, the tendency to think of "some college education" itself as an achievement has to go. This is where this reservation will make a big difference. Communities which are underexposed to higher education opportunities will really benefit a great deal from this reservation.

It just does not pay to think of it as retribution - that is the language politicians would like us to believe. If at all there is an unfairness in the whole thing it is with the creamy layer eating up the reserved seats and thereby defeating the very purpose of the reservation.

This is why I am thrilled by the judgement directing the government to exclude the creamy layer in the implementation of this reservation.

[Roshan]

I have many of my friends who studied with me through reservation quota, they had studied in tamil medium till 12th. then, they cudn't cope with engineering. they failed badly and cudn't find a decent job..

Do you mean ,it is just because they studied in Thamizh medium ?

Thamizh medium-la padicha students-la avanga bright students, no doubt. But, after 12 years of education in tamil, they struggled in engineering due to their lack of english knowledge.

The resevation system, though, guaranteed them a seat in engineering, didn't help them after that.

Hmm .Pls don't generalise .There are so many people studied in thamizh medium and they not only became Engineers ,but IAS officers ..Even Dr.Abdul kalam studied in Thamizh medium only.

Myself studied in thamizh medium only upto 12th and I didn't struggle anywhere because I studied in Thamizh medium.

If at all any lack of standard in that ,that is because of the poor maintenance and care taken by the Govt for rural area schools ,which failed to give standard education and facilities for students ,not because of Thamizh medium.

Tamizh medium students are at a disadvantage when it comes to engineering education where the medium is english.
your examples are exceptions to the rule. (You could've done even better if you had studied in english medium.)
if you can't agree on this, i don't think its worth discussing any further.

It's your arguments that sound exceptional.

[Roshan]

Would like to know how the 'creamy layer' is defined. Informed hubbers please comment.

இந்த நிலையில் பாலாடை பட்டியலில் குறிப்பிடப்பட்டியிருக்கும் வகுப்பினரைப் பார்ப்போம்.

PAlAdai Couldn't they find a better term in Thamizh ?

[Billgates]

Would like to know how the 'creamy layer' is defined. Informed hubbers please comment.

இந்த நிலையில் பாலாடை பட்டியலில் குறிப்பிடப்பட்டியிருக்கும் வகுப்பினரைப் பார்ப்போம்.

PAlAdai Couldn't they find a better term in Thamizh ?

Ada ponga sir enna alu neenga all are concerned about the definition of creamy layer but you are thinking about its translation

[MADDY]

PR, this judgement is like decision to build flyovers for pedestrians..........when they dont even have a cycle to ride on a proper road, how is flyover going to help them? how many OBCs and BCs have been given proper primary education? this reservation is going to benefit only the rich "backward" people......maybe 4-5 deserving poor backward students.........

this 27%, wasted by undeserving ppl., is going to hurt the open category big time.....just imagine, IIM is out of reach for even brilliant "forward" students......i mean, what sort of law is this, when deserving students are denied admission....

anyways, i think more than others its "open" category ppl. who should explore avenues.......stop depending completely on this Indian education system.......Bill gates IIMla padichavanum illa, dhirubhai AIIMSla anbumani ramdoss-oda sanda pottavarum illa

[podalangai]

We also need to know the % of improvement in the lives of BC/OBC since the quota system was introduced . Anybody has the stats ?

That's missing the whole point of reservations. The main effect reservations are capable of achieving is transforming the composition of the middle and professional classes, such that these begin to reflect a broader cross-section of society. This is a desirable end in itself for several reasons.
- Because it gives individual members of the historically oppressed castes hope and an example of what they can achieve. It brings home to them that there is a point to trying to top your class, there is a point to trying to get into a college, because people like you can make something of themselves.
- Because, in a stratified society like India where many people still tend to put their "community" and caste first (the "ivan namma paiyan" attitude), it is critically important that the professional classes represent more than just one interest group and include as broad a section of society as possible.
- And because we simply don't realise what the consequence of having a narrow stratum of society dominating the professional classes are. For example, in Tamilnadu, the quality of healthcare went up significantly once doctors and nurses from backward classes begin filtering into the profession. Why? Because doctors simply didn't understand the euphemisms their patients used to refer to parts of the body that were considered "polluting" or "unclean" - and nobody even realised there was a communication problem until people from the historicaly oppressed classes started becoming doctors.

Yes, reservations have historically been misused by our political masters to create vote banks. Politicians are self-serving creatures, and in the absence of strong checks built into the political process, they'll adopt policies that'll secure them votes and power, even if they're not the best for the country. But that's why we have a Supreme Court. And that's precisely why the Supreme Court has been getting tougher and tougher on the government on the issue of excluding the creamy layer goes, and having clearly defined, transparent criteria for identifying which castes are entitled to reservations. This judgment means that the days when reservations could be a principal tool of vote bank politics are finally coming to an end.

But reservations cannot uplift an entire section of society. In part, it's a question of sheer numbers - in comparison with the enormous size of the population, there simply aren't enough places at good colleges and universities. But more importantly, reservations at the college level don't go far enough, for several reasons:
- The depressed classes disproportionately live in areas where they have no access to education. And even where they have access to schools, they suffer from not having a history of education. Even in Europe, a "bright" child from a poor family by the age of seven does worse in school than a "dull" child from a rich family. The problem's worse by several orders of magnitude in India. As a result, by the time the most disadvantaged sections of society reach the college level, they're already far behind - which means they simply can't use the opportunities that are available to them in the same way that others can.
- Children from the disadvantaged classes disproportionately attend the worst schools, with the worst facilities. And the quality of education suffers hugely as a result. An NGO in Mumbai called Pratham did a nationwide survey of children in municipal schools between the ages of seven and 14 - and found that over half of them couldn't read a simple paragraph in their medium of education. (It began, "A lot of turtles lived by the side of a big lake. Boys would go to the lake and look at the turtles.") What good is reservation going to do these children? Yet it's they who most need it.

Politicians don't care about this - at the end of the day, their kids attend posh schools, and as long as they have their vote banks in order, what happens to municipal schools really doesn't matter. Once again, the Supreme Court is fully aware of this issue. We've already seen them insist that states and the centre formulate a plan to give all children the right to access primary education. The resource implications of this issue are enormous, which is why the Court is going one small step at a time. But the process has begun.

So yes, reservations are critically important, and they can achieve a lot, but they can't achieve everything. Yes, they've been abused, but the process of putting that right has already begun - and more importantly, so has the process of doing the other things we need to do to finally make the legacy of caste-based oppression a thing of the past. Let's take things in context.

[podalangai]

PR, this judgement is like decision to build flyovers for pedestrians..........when they dont even have a cycle to ride on a proper road, how is flyover going to help them? how many OBCs and BCs have been given proper primary education? this reservation is going to benefit only the rich "backward" people......maybe 4-5 deserving poor backward students.........

This again misses the point. An economy with entrenched inequalities simply cannot progress beyond a point. How on earth can India even dream of becoming a knowledge-based economy - something all our governments are fond of repeating - if a huge section of the population doesn't have access to that knowledge simply because of the history of our society? We'll never progress out of a mediaeval setup unles we get rid of the legacy of caste - and reservations are one of the two tools that're absolutely essential to that process.

[kannannn]

MADDY, this should answer some of your questions:
http://www.hindu.com/2008/04/11/stor...1156051000.htm

As for primary education, adhu paatu side-la nadakkattum. When situation improves, the reservation system can be reviewed.

And quoting an important part of the judgement

“I nevertheless believe that caste matters will continue to matter as long as we divide society along castelines. Caste-based discrimination remains. Violence between castes occurs. Caste politics rages on. Where casteism is present, the goal of achieving a casteless society must never be forgotten.”
The judgement, or reservation itself is not going to change the ground situation in terms of caste and caste influenced social dynamics. It is only a means of achieving economic and intellectual equality and not social equality.

[podalangai]

The judgement, or reservation itself is not going to change the ground situation in terms of caste and caste influenced social dynamics. It is only a means of achieving economic and intellectual equality and not social equality.

It will, over time, achieve social equality. Caste-prejudice is actually quite closely tied to traditional occupations. Think about it this way. How many computer programmers from the upper castes would balk at sitting down for lunch at the same table as a programmer who happens to be a Dalit? And how many would balk at sitting down for lunch with a Dalit night-soil worker?

That's precisely why economic and intellectual equality will significantly reduce caste-based social inequality. Not overnight, but in the fullness of time.