Khan Saheb Kamal Haasan's Jamaat/Jeba Koottam/Devasthaanam - Part 8

Actually I think people miss how important any sort of engagement is. It's not just about whether one is pro as opposed to anti or vice versa. You can't be opposed to brahmin hegemony in the proper sense without engaging with a non-brahmin world. (maththappadi, sEthu-la varRA mAdhiri "nammavALukku eppavum pattA dhAnE puriyum"-nu uLLukkuLLayE reNdoru kural irukkaRadhu sAdharaNam.) Similarly, by merely critiquing Hindutva ideology, one doesn't become anti-Hindu in any sense. To even be non-Hindu (in one's films, I mean), one has to minimally traverse the ethos of other cultures/worlds.

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Originally Posted by venkkiram

Can we start listing Hamal's hindu bashing from so far movies? Not to prove anything. Just for record. Let us see how each one of us view those dialogues. In kamal's own words "thedith theerpom vaa! "

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Actually, isn't there a simpler thought experiment which would also be much more authentic? How many Muslims are out there who feel Kamal is pro-Islam?!

pro-islamnu yaarunga sonnom ? anti-islam aaga irukkanumnu yaarum kattaayapaduthhalaye ? anti-hindutva aaga irukka koodathunnum sollalayey ? konjam balancedaa irundhaa yenna kuraichalnu thaana kekkurom ?

adhaavadhu, neenga viruppadramaadhiri avar irukkanumnu nenakkireenga... illaya?

SS - makkal theerpey magesan theerpu illaiyaa ? andha makkalsla naanum oruthhan thaane ? viruppadakkoodadhaa ?

artist ilukkura iluppukku makkala konduvaranumnu dhanae podhuva solluvaanga...
makkal kaekkuradha kudukkuradhula enna creative freedom irukku?..

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Originally Posted by irir123

pro-islamnu yaarunga sonnom ? anti-islam aaga irukkanumnu yaarum kattaayapaduthhalaye ? anti-hindutva aaga irukka koodathunnum sollalayey ? konjam balancedaa irundhaa yenna kuraichalnu thaana kekkurom ?

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I put it that way because you earlier said "pro-islamic rhetoric," but anyway, I'd extend the same logic to the anti-Hindu label too. The way I see it, Kamal's films are too seeped in Hindu identity/culture to be anti-Hindu. At a minimum, one should qualify his films as Hindu in some ways. That's my basic point here.

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Originally Posted by irir123

if one strips away the communist BS, the film wud be less than an hr and half long!

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kizhinjudhu.
adhai stip away paNradhunnA veedhi naadagamE pOttirukka vENdAmE!

The ubersimplification of veedhinaadagam is presented as is. Milton Friedman and JK Galbraithe discuss the role of the state in the economy - ellAm padaththukkuLLa vachchA, endhirichu tea saapida pOyiruvAnga.

adhukku mEla enna perusA BS-ittAru?


vAzhkkai pudhayalappA valuththavan eduththukkappA
avanavan vayithukku dhaan vAzhvadhu thappA


vs


aduththavan vayithukkuLLa un uNavu illaiyappA
eLaichavan pasichirundhA indha maNNu thaangAdhappA

idai sonnadhukkE ennavO Mao, Stalin ellArukkum clean-chit kuduththa mAdhiri solreengaLE :lol2:


idhula religion based disgruntlement vERaiyA. anbEsivam-nu title vachchA appuram 'Sat Sri Akal' nu sollittu kolai paNRa Sardarji villainA vaikka mudiyin?

Equal-A, neutralA irukkaNumnA, aduththu 'anbE yEsunAdhA'-nu oru padam edukkaNum. manu kuduppOm.

Yaarum edhuvum kattaayappaduththalai. False self portrayal paRRidhaan pEchchu.

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Originally Posted by sathya_1979

False self portrayal paRRidhaan pEchchu.

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enna false self portrayal?

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Originally Posted by P_R

enna false self portrayal?

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naama kadandha oNNarai naaLaa edhai paththi pEsikkittrukkamO adhu

How can you accuse Kamal of false self portrayal just because you want exactly equally weighted criticisms, kindals against all religions in his films? It is your problem, not his. That does not make him a "lesser" atheist by any means. Of course you can be disappointedand angry with him for not being equally vociferous, adhu vera vishayam. I, being a believer, find theists more problematic than atheists and agnostics. The posts by Cinefan and irir exactly prove my point and I hopeand I'm reasonably sure that those on the right will find Viswaroobam problematic. I just hope what PR (and I) fear will not happen (double sided mathala adi) - I don't have to be a fan of everything Islam, terrorism and regression to say this

"him for not being equally vociferous" - avLodhaan naan solla vandhadhu. BTW, why I should not allege based on the line which I quoted from ur post? I NEVER mentioned about atheism here. That is entirely out of scope for me. It's about the balance WRT criticizing religions. avLodhaan.
periyavar: "I, being a believer, find theists more problematic than atheists and agnostics.".
adiyEn: I believe in exactly the opposite. Opinions are like "you know what", everybody have one. Everybody is biased and select points which suits them / which helps them do business. Nobody is balanced, nobody is rational.

I will reverse the argument. I haven't seen a single convincing or heart felt condemnation of "our" shameful practicesfrom the groups which question periyar, kamal - not one, online or anywhere else. First adha seri pannittu apparam kamalagasanukku varalaam. For starters (this is not aimed at specific individuals here), practicing Brahmins have no locus standi in any of these matters. Zilch. Mum by default. Those who shed that identity completely can talk (applies downwards accordingly)

I hope my tone is not misunderstood. In a way it is self critical too

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Originally Posted by Bala (Karthik)

I will reverse the argument. I haven't seen a single convincing or heart felt condemnation of "our" shameful practicesfrom the groups which question periyar, kamal - not one, online or anywhere else. First adha seri pannittu apparam kamalagasanukku varalaam. For starters (this is not aimed at specific individuals here), practicing Brahmins have no locus standi in any of these matters. Zilch. Mum by default. Those who shed that identity completely can talk (applies downwards accordingly)

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I guess you are not the authority to define who should question what. I am proud that I touched ur nerve :lol2: BTW, discrimination ellaam ellarum seiyyaradhudhaan, paramakudi thuppaakki soodu and kalavaram year after year - pooNal pOttavangaLaa munna ninnu nadaththaraanga? Let all those who did a crime / mistake / blunder apologize - and then expect apology. illaatti thappE seiyyaadha oru group vandhu thappa sutti kaattatum, mannippu ennaa kaalla vizharadha paththi kooda pEsalaam.

BTW, thanks to you too for ur time and posts. Helped in understanding counter POV. But, as always, this will not go any further as pointers and counter-pointers are not going to change.
adhanaala natpaa bye bye sollittu indha discussion close seiyyalaam. What say?

Sathya
Why this confrontational stance? You didn't touch my nerve but missed the point I'm trying to make. Mobile la detailed-a type panna kashtama irukku...

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Originally Posted by equanimus

The way I see it, Kamal's films are too seeped in Hindu identity/culture to be anti-Hindu. At a minimum, one should qualify his films as Hindu in some ways. That's my basic point here.

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Just like how atheists qualify as 'theists' in some ways to Gray, fellow skeptics and homeless people.

"applies downwards accordingly", "in a way self critical too" ......^
This is about caste *identity*, the mere existence of it, which in my opinion should go. and it starts with my kurupp.

Kamal is anti-hindu, Woody is anti-jew, why is that I'm more worried of P_R being anti-football. :twisted:

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Originally Posted by sathya_1979

I am proud that I touched ur nerve :lol2:

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Oru kalakkaththathai yERpaduthuradhu dhaanE avarum seyyuraar. :lol2:
Again I refeat - ippo ellAm avvaLO azhagaana seyyuradhillai.
VR - pArppOm
GM: enna aappOm?

And Sathya, if I am not the authority on who should question what, why is Kamal being demanded to do this and that??? Why is he alone subjected to the demands of the "authority"

Equa
Can you elaborate on why Kamal's films areHindu and generally the point you are making about one being "engaged"? Not sure if I follow

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Originally Posted by Bala (Karthik)

"applies downwards accordingly", "in a way self critical too" ......^
This is about caste *identity*, the mere existence of it, which in my opinion should go. and it starts with my kurupp.

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Actually idhai paththi virivA eppayaachum pEsalAm. Actually what is meant by saadhi ozhiyaNum. What are the markers, practices we are talking about? I don't think we engage with this question deeply enough.

No No, no confrontation and all. Unga opinion and understandingof KH neenga sollirukkeenga, I found his view points as shallow and not worthy to pay heed to. avLodhaan. Based on my life experiences, I have formed opinions on certain subjects - Religion, Atheism, Casteism, Balanced Criticism etc. When our POV does not match with others, decentaa hand-shake senjittu poidalaamngradhudhaan ennOda karuththu.
aduththavanga namba POV accept seiyyalEngradhukkaaga veRuppu, virOdham etc etc - I am not for that game. I always know your opinions as well that of others (apdinnu nenachittrukkEn) - Based on what I inferred from ur posts all along. adhu enakku oththu pOgalai. avLodhaan.
maRRapadi respect on you people as well as KH as a "Film Artist" never diminished. Believe it or not, onsappaanyatayam I was a Die-Hard KH fan, started moving away after entry of topics about atheism and Hindu Criticism (Or Maybe when I started realizing that those are being fed through the movies).
namakku pidichcha idolOda views namakkum pidikkaNumnu avasiyam illayE

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Originally Posted by kid-glove

Kamal is anti-hindu, Woody is anti-jew, why is that I'm more worried of P_R being anti-football. :twisted:

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You Dawkinsian ruffian!

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Originally Posted by Bala (Karthik)

And Sathya, if I am not the authority on who should question what, why is Kamal being demanded to do this and that??? Why is he alone subjected to the demands of the "authority"

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Rational kittErundhu "Balanced" criticism dhaan edhirpaakkaRom, criticismE paNNa koodaadhunnu solla endha rightum illainu enakku theriyum :)

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Originally Posted by P_R

Actually idhai paththi virivA eppayaachum pEsalAm. Actually what is meant by saadhi ozhiyaNum. What are the markers, practices we are talking about? I don't think we engage with this question deeply enough.

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Brilliant. idhukkudhaan ungaLa maadhiri padichavanga vEnumgradhu. Define the parameters - Then, we shall define the system. nalladhu nadandhaa sari. idhai paRRi pEsumbOdhu revolution paRRi kalki la padichcha oru line dhaan nyaabagaththukku varudhu - The meaning of Revolution in today's world - It is not about creating equality but mere transfer of power from one group to another group.

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Originally Posted by P_R

Actually idhai paththi virivA eppayaachum pEsalAm. Actually what is meant by saadhi ozhiyaNum. What are the markers, practices we are talking about? I don't think we engage with this question deeply enough.

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Yes, and racism, conditioning, prejudice etc...
Have you read outlook S.Anand's piece on himself and his wife (about his Brahmin background)? We may or may not share his views on undoing everything to rid oneself of that identity, but I found it interesting.

Is it ok to be a cultural Brahmin (food, baashai to kids etc)? Does that identity (however mild and moderate) come with so much baggage and conditioning that some kind of subtle elitism and perception of superiority creep in? Is the exhibition of these markets harmless or offensive to victims?

Why is Kamal demanded to espouse the opposite view point? Simply because he hits the truth pretty damningly. I have to confess I have traversed from sathya's state to the current state so I see *exactly* where sathya is coming from. Kamal criticises the difficult-to-accept aspects of certain cultural aspects(I wont give ownership of those aspects to Hinduism or hindutva) in a way that makes those aspects pretty naked.

Therefore, as someone who is unwilling to accept the naked truth, I sort of develop a wish that Kamal actualyl does the same to some naked truths on the "opposite" side. Because, when he does it my "opposite" side will get the damning it is due.

It is not that Islam doesnt get its criticism in Indian movies - Telugu movies nakedly parade their anti-Islam. Well, not exactly because it is not as if they understand Islam and expose the problems with it. They simply create villains of the sort that the "Kamal is anti hindu" brigade would want. That is to say, if you wanted Nasser in Anbe Sivam to be a moslem spouting bismillah, you would actually find that in these movies. And it is pretty mainstream and *completely accepted as normal* in Telugu. But then , they dont have the validity that a Kamal critique in his movies will provide.

Therefore, when I anguishedly ask :Why doesnt Kamal criticise Islam as he does Hindutva:, it is because if he does, he'll do it in a way that will make me feel good about my opposite side also being damned.


I think Bala hit the nail - frameworklErundhu veLiya vandhA dhAn purinjukka mudiyum ((nAn frameworklErundhu veLiya vara but OraLavukku purinjukka mudiyudhu. maybe i am in the border

Idhu epdinnA

Kamal: Religion is the opiate of masses etc. (shows "hindu" aspects as religion which he decries)
Podhu janam: islathaiyum solluppA! nAnga bad dhAn othukkarOM. avanum bad-nu sollu

idhai thAn P_R pointed out that avar perumbAlum "hindu" charactersaiyE damn paNninAlum, hey ram simply makes it clear that he is damning everyone.

But what people want is the alpa satisfaction of seeing the opposition also damned.

I am pretty clear about it as I have had the opportunity to be the Onayi from both sides in my life.

The simplest way to end this is to simply grant that eithe a) Kamal is a coward who cannot criticise Islam or b) Kamal is a hypocrite. This should not be hard to do as if someone has to go beyond this understanding, well if they do they wouldnt need your explanation about what exactly Kamal is standing for. I am the clearest example of someone who crossed that line of undersanding of my own - after rejecting any number of explanations that offered to translate Kamal for me.

Food? How is that offensive? Veg mattum saaptta non-veg sappdravangaLukku insultingaa irukkumaa? :roll:

Welcome back. Now off you go.

Yeah! vara vechitttOm :clap:

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Originally Posted by P_R

Actually idhai paththi virivA eppayaachum pEsalAm. Actually what is meant by saadhi ozhiyaNum. What are the markers, practices we are talking about? I don't think we engage with this question deeply enough.

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I'd settle for something as simple as "taking pride in one's jaadhi" and "nAn bad sari but enakku opposite jaadhiyum bad-nu sollu" kind of thought-processes being extinguished.

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Originally Posted by sathya_1979

Food? How is that offensive? Veg mattum saaptta non-veg sappdravangaLukku insultingaa irukkumaa? :roll:

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Food offensive illeenga :lol: Having or doing something to express one's Brahminism, as against choices we make as individuals without that baggage.

aduththa kELvi: If we can take pride in our language / nationality, why not for caste? Instead of pride, maybe we can say veRi and discrimination of others in the name of caste.

AmAm pinnE ingE irukara sollO sappaiyA pEsikittirundhInga. konja nAL kodanAdu pOnyi rest eduiththA ipdi weightA matter pEsaRInga. oru manushan enna dhAn pAndradhu?

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Originally Posted by Bala (Karthik)

Food offensive illeenga :lol: Having or doing something to express one's Brahminism, as against choices we make as individuals without that baggage.

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Identity - As long as it does not insult, harm, discriminate others - not a problemnu naan nenaikkirEn. Take for example pooNal - The foremost identity - Say, a person believes in some rituals which require pooNal (Just like any other religion). As long as he does not say / behave in such a way that he is superior "Just Beacuse" of his pooNal, why pooNal should be considered offensive?

Analogy - kaththi vechi vegetable cut paNNalaam, kolai paNNalaam - adhu yaen eppavumE kolai seiyyadhaan payanpadudhunu nenaikkaNum? kolai senjaan dhandanai, vegetable cut senjaa saappadunu irukkalaamE?

Why blame markers or tools for the acts of people who use them?

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Originally Posted by Plum

AmAm pinnE ingE irukara sollO sappaiyA pEsikittirundhInga. konja nAL kodanAdu pOnyi rest eduiththA ipdi weightA matter pEsaRInga. oru manushan enna dhAn pAndradhu?

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he he, photography pakkam divert aayittEn. adhaan :). also, maybe more mature now to approach counter-arguments without getting emotional. If it convinces us, edhuthukkalaam, illainaa discussion senjittu poidalaamnu oru nyaanodhayam